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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1041 - 2014-10-11 20:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:


And I'll tell you, Eve players just don't know how good they have it.

It annoys me with the way the eve community ho-hums all the graphic changes that are being done. I see the groundwork being laid for much customization in the future. All the old artwork - backrounds, gates and stations, solar effect - require thousands of meshes and textures to be redone, then proofed, all one at a time.

Your right, recently there has been a lot of pretty new colors and shapes added to lots of things. Problem is there is things that have been broken or barely usable for years that are still not fixed.
So while i agree, most of the new stuff looks great, it does nothing to remedy underlying problems.


Eve survives and grows to a large extent, by good feedback by its player base. When someone asks "what do you think of", your response could well make the difference between someone signing up or looking for another game.
Much of the existing player base (that has been around for more than a few months), would rather see existing issues fixed before they want to see, they can change the color of their Abbadon.

CCP went down the "we know best" road before, it didn't work out to well. Incarna was it?
CCP may own Eve Online but it is our game, keep taking the "fun" out of it and CCP can have it all to themselves.

My part of eve is up for grabs, I really don't want it anymore.

Don't know how but it double posted, once as a quote from me by me..
Sorry it was not intentional

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Perseus Kallistratos
The Maverick Navy
#1042 - 2014-10-11 20:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Perseus Kallistratos
Medalyn Isis wrote:
GeeBee wrote:
This witch hunt of nerfing power projection makes be believe that CCP has lost sight of this being a sandbox MMO. All these silly regulations and stipulations and tribulations closing loops holes. Its a sandbox, what you're currently doing is overkill. The only real power projection problems have been rooted into the carrier and titan bridge chains IMO. Rather than taking a sledge hammer to the universe how about starting with a regular nail driver.

Its hilarious how many people are cheering for these changes thinking it will make some miracle cure all allowing them to be victorious. In reality it affects everyone equally, it will not give any smaller entities any benefit and longterm will hurt smaller / independent groups more, possibly add to nullsec stagnation and further promotes larger entities.

But hey it seems I'm alone on sanity island, the rest of you clowns that keep cheering for these needless changes be careful what you wish for.

The number of foundational mechanics that are being broken by these changes is off the greyscale, we're entering the plaidscale zone.
Things that will be gone that really shouldn't be
1) Suitcase carrier - the ability to move your subcaps from one place to another. This can be seen as force projection but its also just quality of life. The carrier is the entry level ship for anyone getting into being an independent nullsec player or entity. While carrier blobs are certainly in need of balance completely cutting this foundational mechanic out of the game is silly.
2) Jump Bridges, Seriously they got nerfed plenty in that patch that was right before Incarna, remember when we could have 2 JBs per system, those were the days...full fatigue on JBs is just insane and unwarranted.
3) Jump Fatigue breaks evac operations. Being on the loosing end of a fight just became a lot more expensive if you're gonna loose your space.

This entire proposal is a kneejerk reaction. Earlier this summer Jump Drives got nerfed with increased fuel consumption and the isotopes volumes were changed. Now you're basically proposing that aside from JFs we stop using jump drives all together. If you were planning to do this back then that change likely wouldn't have happened. This entire set of changes is very quickly thought up, poorly planned, and un-needed.

Someone else said this, but I think is the most helpful example to help people like yourself understand why instant force projection is bad for the game and why people are happy for its removal.

I'm sure you played a game called Risk before. In Risk you can move your pieces to one adjacent square each turn. At the moment in the current status quo in eve, you can move your pieces anywhere across the board in one turn. I hope you can understand what would happen if this was the case in Risk, and therefore see why it is game breaking in eve also hence the blue doughnut.


Where is this blue donut? I require pictures, color preferred. If you have 3d models even better.

TIA
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1043 - 2014-10-11 21:15:45 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm sure you played a game called Risk before. In Risk you can move your pieces to one adjacent square each turn. At the moment in the current status quo in eve, you can move your pieces anywhere across the board in one turn. I hope you can understand what would happen if this was the case in Risk, and therefore see why it is game breaking in eve also hence the blue doughnut.


I've played chess too.... ever heard of the QUEEN?

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1044 - 2014-10-11 22:03:26 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm sure you played a game called Risk before. In Risk you can move your pieces to one adjacent square each turn. At the moment in the current status quo in eve, you can move your pieces anywhere across the board in one turn. I hope you can understand what would happen if this was the case in Risk, and therefore see why it is game breaking in eve also hence the blue doughnut.


I've played chess too.... ever heard of the QUEEN?



Ok then.

Imagine having five queens that can move wherever they want on the board, even if there are other pieces blocking the path.

And that they don't need to move in straight lines either.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1045 - 2014-10-11 22:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
CCP Greyscale, are you insane? Black ops (7.5ly) can jump farther than carriers (5ly) now? And my JDC 5 super long train has been gimped from 25% on a base 2.5ly carrier on training wheels down to 20%? And you actually had the audacity to suggest that a carrier pilot would actually hit such a large jump fatigue wall that he would actually consider jumping through stargates? The pilot in that scenario would have to be crazy to actually consider finishing the remaining travel by taking his solo carrier (even if scouted) through 50 stargate jumps.

The real scenario plays out something like this:
some_carrier_pilot_in_alliance_chat wrote:
"uh, hey guys, I need to move my carrier again. (awww nooo not again, another carrier move op, really?) yeah I need an alliance escort of 50 to 100 ships to convoy down some 30 jumps out from our home base in order to meet up with my carrier and to escort it through the next 50 stargates, so yeah sorry about the inconvenience k don't hate me but CCP made this crazy change and now life sucks for us capital pilots so just please understand guys and don't hate."


Not happy at all.. CCP Greyscale, you couldn't have reviewed more than the first page of feedback on the previous thread or you would have seen these issues and addressed them here.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1046 - 2014-10-11 22:18:40 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm sure you played a game called Risk before. In Risk you can move your pieces to one adjacent square each turn. At the moment in the current status quo in eve, you can move your pieces anywhere across the board in one turn. I hope you can understand what would happen if this was the case in Risk, and therefore see why it is game breaking in eve also hence the blue doughnut.


I've played chess too.... ever heard of the QUEEN?



Ok then.

Imagine having five queens that can move wherever they want on the board, even if there are other pieces blocking the path.

And that they don't need to move in straight lines either.


Now, here's the thing..... does CCP give away carriers?..... NO

But I'm gonna give you something. It's called a CLUE.

Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.

Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....


then maybe you'll have five queens too.

DHUUUUUHH.........



Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1047 - 2014-10-11 22:22:27 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.
Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....

RENTERS

The endgame of eve online

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1048 - 2014-10-11 22:24:35 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.
Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....

RENTERS

The endgame of eve online



Youngstown Ohio and good old American steel and industry.

The end game of WW II



Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1049 - 2014-10-11 22:46:41 UTC
Speaking of Youngstown... :) here's some inspiration......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9fqWxussAY

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1050 - 2014-10-11 22:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucien Visteen
Polo Marco wrote:
Now, here's the thing..... does CCP give away carriers?..... NO

But I'm gonna give you something. It's called a CLUE.

Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.

Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....


then maybe you'll have five queens too.

DHUUUUUHH.........





The numbers are arbitrary, it's the system that is flawed.

Since you know about chess, and presumely, how chess is played. I venture to guess that you also will see that a queen (or five) having the capability to move wherever they please, is a broken game mechanic.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Perseus Kallistratos
The Maverick Navy
#1051 - 2014-10-11 22:53:55 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.
Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....

RENTERS

The endgame of eve online


Please describe to me in more detail the endgame of eve. color and 3d models preferred.
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1052 - 2014-10-11 22:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Now, here's the thing..... does CCP give away carriers?..... NO

But I'm gonna give you something. It's called a CLUE.

Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.

Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....


then maybe you'll have five queens too.

DHUUUUUHH.........





The numbers are arbitrary, it's the system that is flawed.

Since you know about chess, and presumely, how chess is played. I venture to guess that you also will see that a queen (or five) having the capability to move wherever they please, is a broken game mechanic.



So you are telling me that the Axis was was cheated? (go back and read post 1049 and 1050)


Nil's solo is worth the trip BTW :)

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1053 - 2014-10-11 23:05:27 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm sure you played a game called Risk before. In Risk you can move your pieces to one adjacent square each turn. At the moment in the current status quo in eve, you can move your pieces anywhere across the board in one turn. I hope you can understand what would happen if this was the case in Risk, and therefore see why it is game breaking in eve also hence the blue doughnut.


I've played chess too.... ever heard of the QUEEN?



Ok then.

Imagine having five queens that can move wherever they want on the board, even if there are other pieces blocking the path.

And that they don't need to move in straight lines either.


Now, here's the thing..... does CCP give away carriers?..... NO

But I'm gonna give you something. It's called a CLUE.

Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.

Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....


then maybe you'll have five queens too.

DHUUUUUHH.........




How about we just screw all the other pieces, throw them off the board completely, and everyone just uses queens...

Although queens aren't comparable as they can only travel in a straight or diagonal line, so we'd have to create a new piece which can go to any position on the board it likes. Because that'd make chess a lot more fun right?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1054 - 2014-10-11 23:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Perseus Kallistratos wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.
Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....

RENTERS

The endgame of eve online


Please describe to me in more detail the endgame of eve. color and 3d models preferred.


BOTLRD = END GAME

No need for 3d models, as long as you can read a sov map.

- - - - - - - -
All I did was jump my Archon

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Arronicus
Madness Unchained
#1055 - 2014-10-11 23:29:11 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Querns wrote:
Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do?


Happy to discuss it, yes :)

Evelgrivion wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Quoting first post:

Quote:
The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.


Well... where do you want nullsec industry to be?


Somewhere where we feel comfortable nerfing JFs further :P We're not in a position to discuss details right now, but people building a significant percentage of their basic needs on-site without relying on JF chains is likely to figure in the final intention.



First, while a 10ly jump range on the rorqual is very appealing, especially for those who might have multiple mining systems in the event that one gets cloaky camped for a while, (not going to get into why I think that the ability of people to disrupt other's gameplay while they aren't actually at the computer is a bad thing), if you ever want people like myself to actively use our rorquals IN the mining belt boosting for mining ops, the drone bonus is FAR, FAR more valuable.

Without knowing your future plans for the ship, aside from the obvious need for a cycle time reduction on industrial cores (perhaps 60 seconds, and 45 seconds on a t2 variant? Hmm? Some reason to finally train the skill beyond 1, given that there is no worthwhile benefit right now), the drone bonus seems like the better of the two to have.



Second, as for actual nullsec industry, I hope that it is readily apparent that the major factor blockading nullsec self-sustainability in terms of tech 1/capital production is the massive imbalance of asteroids in (no longer hidden) gravbelts. There is a massive shortage of mexallon in these sites, to the point where mining them out in full, you only receive about 30% of the mexallon you need, to make use of your trit/pye/iso/nocx/mega/zyd. There is the matter of how much mega/zyd you still have to ship off to sell, something that wouldnt hurt to see adressed, but isn't really a big problem. The fact that you simply MUST important vast amounts of mexallon simply to make use of your other minerals is the real problem. With that addressed, ignoring tech 2 and tech 3 for a moment here, players like myself could build mini industry biomes in deepnull, where morphite/mega/zyd was exported, and t2 products/moongoo was imported.

Of course, you could simply add mexallon to some of the ores in amounts that would vastly increase the amount of mexallon in the belts, or you could just shift around the types of ores, re-working the balance of minerals.



Frag Solo
We Broke The Game
Pandemic Legion
#1056 - 2014-10-11 23:40:51 UTC
Thx for this little ajustment ccp ....
But i think we have yet a problem !
The carrier is the most multirole ship ....
So i think you must create 2 more carrier :
-Tier 1 carrier --> only carring ship 10 ly and 90% reduction fatigue
-Tier 2 carrier --> (2 option possible 1 you regroup triage and slowcat like today or 2 you create tier 2 carrier slowcat and tier 3 triage) with 5ly and fatigue
And if you do that i think , all logistician like me will not suicide !

@Frag_Solo

EVE Paris , EVE Vegas , EVE Fanfest .... I was there

Undefeated champion of Valkyrie

Complaints Department AT Team Captain and director

Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1057 - 2014-10-11 23:44:57 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Now, here's the thing..... does CCP give away carriers?..... NO

But I'm gonna give you something. It's called a CLUE.

Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.

Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....


then maybe you'll have five queens too.

DHUUUUUHH.........





The numbers are arbitrary, it's the system that is flawed.

Since you know about chess, and presumely, how chess is played. I venture to guess that you also will see that a queen (or five) having the capability to move wherever they please, is a broken game mechanic.



So you are telling me that the Axis was was cheated? (go back and read post 1049 and 1050)


Nil's solo is worth the trip BTW :)


Sorry, but I don't follow.

How is the above question related to the current system, regarding jump mechanics, and the future changes to it?

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1058 - 2014-10-11 23:50:38 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm sure you played a game called Risk before. In Risk you can move your pieces to one adjacent square each turn. At the moment in the current status quo in eve, you can move your pieces anywhere across the board in one turn. I hope you can understand what would happen if this was the case in Risk, and therefore see why it is game breaking in eve also hence the blue doughnut.


I've played chess too.... ever heard of the QUEEN?



Ok then.

Imagine having five queens that can move wherever they want on the board, even if there are other pieces blocking the path.

And that they don't need to move in straight lines either.


Now, here's the thing..... does CCP give away carriers?..... NO

But I'm gonna give you something. It's called a CLUE.

Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.

Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....


then maybe you'll have five queens too.

DHUUUUUHH.........




How about we just screw all the other pieces, throw them off the board completely, and everyone just uses queens...

Although queens aren't comparable as they can only travel in a straight or diagonal line, so we'd have to create a new piece which can go to any position on the board it likes. Because that'd make chess a lot more fun right?



Well in CHESS...... it's like kindergarten. They give everybody the same number of crayons...err pieces.. and the teacher....err nanny... walks around the room making sure Little Billy doesn't tease Julie Ann and make her cry...

But some day you have to GROW UP.

You have to WORK FOR A LIVING.

You have to MAKE YOUR OWN PIECES.

And maybe, just maybe, when you are big boys and girls, you will be ready for Eve Online.

You know.... The SANDBOX.....

It's a complete political-economic-military futuristic space MMO ( Did you read the advertisement before you subscribed?)

The guy who swings the sword in this game is only as good as the smith who forges it.

Did the great kings and generals of legend make their own weapons?

They had better things to do. You want to find Excalibur in a stone and just pull it out?

Maybe you're in the wrong game.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1059 - 2014-10-11 23:57:43 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:

Sorry, but I don't follow.

How is the above question related to the current system, regarding jump mechanics, and the future changes to it?




See post 1059... here is the link, since you seem to need help....

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5110319#post5110319




Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#1060 - 2014-10-12 00:03:34 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ahh not sure if you have ever looked at a carrier but what you just suggested as change, already exists.

Carrier goes to "massive repair capability" mode (triage), he has NO drones for the 5 min cycle.

Yeah, no. I'm talking about either/or. You either fit your carrier for one or the other, and that's it. You're talking about less/more, and you can change from one to the other when it's convienient.
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Remote repping carriers are a tool, not op just a viable tool ( or used to be anyway), remove or reduce drones when remote reps are fit, you remove the need for and ability of carriers as combat ships altogether.

Yes, just like how no one uses Logistic ships because they have terrible DPS. We all know titans only die when they get outside the fighter coverage of the carrier support fleet.
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'm curious as to what the "plus all the other things carriers have" is.

Here's something to help you get started: http://themittani.com/features/eves-ghost-riding-explained