These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#781 - 2014-10-10 15:29:36 UTC
Current Habit wrote:
CCP in charge of screwing their own power projection nerf.

1. Use barely nerfed JFs to create ship caches around the galaxy.
2. Travel in Haulers with JBs around half the map in 15min.
3. ???
4. Power projection nerfed! /s

Retar Aveymone wrote:
would one of the many idiots who think an industrial through jump bridges will ever be faster than a taxi interceptor post a video proving it

i look forward to the utter lack of videos as you discover an interceptor will always be faster in any reasonable situation

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#782 - 2014-10-10 15:31:06 UTC
Querns wrote:
Current Habit wrote:
CCP in charge of screwing their own power projection nerf.

1. Use barely nerfed JFs to create ship caches around the galaxy.
2. Travel in Haulers with JBs around half the map in 15min.
3. ???
4. Power projection nerfed! /s

Try an hour. Crossing our own territory in fatigue-bonused industrials takes an hour.

Interceptors do it in 30 minutes, without using jump bridges or titan bridges.




You decided to cross the Universe.. but if your objective is to get to 10 LY away, depending on the part of the universe it will be faster trough the hualer.

AND the hauler movement cannot be detected or intercepted so easily . Something that is MORE important military wise than the speed of movement itself.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#783 - 2014-10-10 15:31:07 UTC
that is not even counting how easy it is to bubble and murder a horde of t1 industrials following a known route compared to how impossible it is to catch a taxiceptor which can only be lost to an internet hiccup
Kiwinoob
Perkone
Caldari State
#784 - 2014-10-10 15:31:44 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Querns wrote:
I miss you, Dinsdale. Please come back to us. These half-hearted attempts at tinfoil do not compare to your mastery.

RIP Dinsdale Pirannha, it's been nearly a month since you posted.


I'm pretty sure that nerfing JF's into the ground was the last nail in the coffin of hisec industry. Reversing the nerf would undoubtedly also be the last nail in the coffin of hisec industry. I'm pretty sure the middle ground would also be the last nail in the coffin. There ya go, I channeled him for you.


You're probably not far off. No matter what happens now all the JF pilots are going to be so busy trolling the forums for any hint of another range nerf new eden is about to grind to a halt.

Devs are nothing more than machines that turn coffee into code. The quality of the code is inversly proportional to the quality of the coffee.

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#785 - 2014-10-10 15:32:37 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
AND the hauler movement cannot be detected or intercepted so easily . Something that is MORE important military wise than the speed of movement itself.

"the hauler, which must travel a known path and is dead the instant it lands in a bubble, cannot be intercepted as easily as a 2s align interceptor, which is bubble immune and can warp before you lock"

"these things i believe, the above and the importance of eating paint chips for lunch"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#786 - 2014-10-10 15:32:50 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
that is not even counting how easy it is to bubble and murder a horde of t1 industrials following a known route compared to how impossible it is to catch a taxiceptor which can only be lost to an internet hiccup



Peopel will NOT use the hualers in gates. THey will JUMP trough a Jump bridge in a hauler get a ceptor on the other site and run the last few jumps on it.

When returning They dock the ceptor get the hauler and use the jump bridge AGAIN in the hauler.
Advantaeg? they did not hurt at all their fatigue. THat means that later in the day if they need to use their carriers, they can make a force d fast travel of 2 jumps without being worried about having been previously fatigued during the day.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#787 - 2014-10-10 15:34:37 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
that is not even counting how easy it is to bubble and murder a horde of t1 industrials following a known route compared to how impossible it is to catch a taxiceptor which can only be lost to an internet hiccup



Peopel will NOT use the hualers in gates. THey will JUMP trough a Jump bridge in a hauler get a ceptor on the other site and run the last few jumps on it.

When returning They dock the ceptor get the hauler and use the jump bridge AGAIN in the hauler.
Advantaeg? they did not hurt at all their fatigue. THat means that later in the day if they need to use their carriers, they can make a force d fast travel of 2 jumps without being worried about having been previously fatigued during the day.

this is an even dumber plan than your initial one

like seriously people, look at this
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#788 - 2014-10-10 15:34:44 UTC
Nerfing logistic will incrase and move the empty systems to the outer regions making them less reachable and less interesting.
Hicksimus
Torgue
#789 - 2014-10-10 15:34:46 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
that is not even counting how easy it is to bubble and murder a horde of t1 industrials following a known route compared to how impossible it is to catch a taxiceptor which can only be lost to an internet hiccup


Don't let the word smart in smart bombs scare you.

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#790 - 2014-10-10 15:35:24 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
AND the hauler movement cannot be detected or intercepted so easily . Something that is MORE important military wise than the speed of movement itself.

"the hauler, which must travel a known path and is dead the instant it lands in a bubble, cannot be intercepted as easily as a 2s align interceptor, which is bubble immune and can warp before you lock"

"these things i believe, the above and the importance of eating paint chips for lunch"



WHY WOULD THE HAULER USE A GATE DAMMIT? At least not more than 1 every jump bridge sump. Since it can use the bridges to move fast and without chance of being detected . You can move 300 Pilots more QUIETELY this way than with interceptors depending on the geography of the region.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#791 - 2014-10-10 15:35:45 UTC
Kiwinoob wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Querns wrote:
I miss you, Dinsdale. Please come back to us. These half-hearted attempts at tinfoil do not compare to your mastery.

RIP Dinsdale Pirannha, it's been nearly a month since you posted.


I'm pretty sure that nerfing JF's into the ground was the last nail in the coffin of hisec industry. Reversing the nerf would undoubtedly also be the last nail in the coffin of hisec industry. I'm pretty sure the middle ground would also be the last nail in the coffin. There ya go, I channeled him for you.


You're probably not far off. No matter what happens now all the JF pilots are going to be so busy trolling the forums for any hint of another range nerf new eden is about to grind to a halt.


The sad part of this thread is 90% of it is related to non-JF industrials. most people seem OK with holding off on JF's until they get more into their development changes. The big, silly debate seems relegated to subcap industrials and whether they will be used as taxis by those who own jump bridge superhighways.
Josef Djugashvilis
#792 - 2014-10-10 15:35:57 UTC
What's the difference between a hi-sec care bear and a null-sec care bear?

The null-sec care bear is in denial.

This is not a signature.

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#793 - 2014-10-10 15:36:32 UTC
Before I start with specifics:

The general intent here is to be as sure as possible that we achieve our goals over the long run, while placing as few limitations as possible. There are various ideas being thrown around, of varying degrees of plausibility, for circumventing these changes. Some may actually end up being practical, most probably won't. Rather than nerfing everything into the ground up front, we'd rather catch the really obvious stuff first and then see how the game plays out. You *can* HG-Ascendency a super to move it around, sure, but by the same token you *can* get an officer neut to fit on a Curse. We like it when people occasionally do weird, unexpected things with the tools we give them, but we step in when such cases become both common and counter to goals.

If any of these things become commonplace, we will very likely nerf them. Here's a list of things that have been up, some reasons as to why we're skeptical of their utility, and a sample of the sort of nerf we'd be likely to do to counter them:

- Setting up caches of ships and jump cloning to them
-- Difficulty and cost of setting up and maintaining caches of sufficient size and density
-- Limit jump clone usage furtehr
- Ascendancy capitals
-- Risks involved, rarity of key items
-- Reduce bonuses hyperspatial whatsamajigs give to supers
- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus
- T1 hauler redeployment
-- Risk of moving your whole fleet in T1 haulers, bridging or no
-- Nerf hauler fatigue bonus
- Using JFs to move your fleet
-- Requires everyone to train for and own a JF, requires you to fly round in an unescorted fleet of JFs
-- We're going to nerf JFs evenutally, if we have to tackle this in the meantime we'll think of something
- Blockade-runner/black ops fleet movement
-- Need to have BO stationed everywhere to pull it off
-- Nerf BR bonuses
- Roaming fast-warp carrier gangs
-- It's a gimmick, there's probably a good counter
-- Delete carriers from game (kidding, unfortunately, but we'll think of something)



Manfred Sideous wrote:
@CCP


Most people don't understand the roadmap. They can't fill in the blanks even though some have been able to for a long time P. I think it would make things so much better for one of you or Seagull to reiterate the roadmap. To fill in some of the holes. You don't have to give particulars or dates but I think it will pay dividends on community relations. If everyone was able to understand what some of us do people would be more receptive. I don't have any special or privileged knowledge of the roadmap for instance. However , I have listened carefully and considered what would fundamentally change Eve and make it a more exciting healthier place. Once you have done that it's easy to see what will be done. So far i'm batting a 1000. So please I implore you to give consideration to talking more about the roadmap and the steps that will reach the destination.


Passing this on.

Danika Princip wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Vesan Terakol wrote:
I want to raise a question about the Prospect - would it be treated as industrial (90% reduction) or covert (50% reduction) ship in therms of fatigue?


Not designated as a hauler so not getting the industrial bonus; can use covert portal so will get 50% bonus while using covert portal.



What about shuttles? They're designated as haulers. Or leopards?


Good point. Will look into that.

Darryl Brown wrote:
[quote=CCP Greyscale]
Black Ops fatigue is a value we're happy to tune, within a reasonable range. Make a case for a number and we'll listen :)


Oooh, ooh, pick me!

Combat black ops drops (e.g. Falcon tackles Rattlesnake in a Sanctum, lights covert cyno, two Panthers and a Sin jump in and kill Rattlesnake) are great fun. They add value to Eve because ratting with neuts or reds in local should be risky. They're not perfect; the target might be pre-aligned to a safe, loaded with warp core stabilizers, handy with an AB and MJD, or bait for a counter-drop. Blops drops depend upon stealth, patience, and mobility. The primary weapon is surprise - and jumping to the hunter cyno is essential for the surprise to work.

Here's how things work currently:
The hunter roams through a region, dodging gate camps and looking wistfully at shiny ships in POSes. At last! He spots a target in an anomaly. Things happen quickly - decloak, tackle, cyno, blops bses jump in, target dies, cyno down, scoop the loot, leave the scene. The black ops battleships wait for jump cap and then return to the staging system via jump. The hunter moves on in search of the next target.

Here's how things would work with a 5ly jump with these revised changes:
Hunter cyno goes up, Blops ships jump in, kill the target, and wait for 1+2.5 minutes before the jump cool-down expires. If they jump 5ly to the exit cyno after 3.5 minutes with 3.15 fatigue they get 3.15 x 3.5 = 11.025 fatigue and are done for the day. If they choose to wait in the system for at least 25 minutes, their fatigue drops below 1 and the next jump isn't quite so painful.

Assuming they're adaptive folks - they have abandoned the practice of always returning to the staging system and instead wait to jump directly to the next target. Either way - there is no point in continuing to hunt for 20+ minutes until the combat blops pilots' fatigue is reduced. This is not fun. Although I suppose the hunter could go around and do "catch and release" fishing for a bit. How about taking gates? Combat blops ships are certainly better than most ships at navigating bubble camps (better speed while cloaked, can fit MJDs), but they're also pricey and fragile. Plus, they warp at 2.2au/s, so warping from in-gate to target is not feasible.

[b]I think a -50% fatigue factor is...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#794 - 2014-10-10 15:37:28 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
that is not even counting how easy it is to bubble and murder a horde of t1 industrials following a known route compared to how impossible it is to catch a taxiceptor which can only be lost to an internet hiccup



Peopel will NOT use the hualers in gates. THey will JUMP trough a Jump bridge in a hauler get a ceptor on the other site and run the last few jumps on it.

When returning They dock the ceptor get the hauler and use the jump bridge AGAIN in the hauler.
Advantaeg? they did not hurt at all their fatigue. THat means that later in the day if they need to use their carriers, they can make a force d fast travel of 2 jumps without being worried about having been previously fatigued during the day.

this is an even dumber plan than your initial one

like seriously people, look at this



If YOU are uanble to use your brain that is not MY PROGBLEM.

People do not like to click jump 40 times and they will NOT if they can use haulers with jump bridges for 3/4 of the travel.


Only an IDIOT would not take advantage of that.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#795 - 2014-10-10 15:37:42 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Querns wrote:
Current Habit wrote:
CCP in charge of screwing their own power projection nerf.

1. Use barely nerfed JFs to create ship caches around the galaxy.
2. Travel in Haulers with JBs around half the map in 15min.
3. ???
4. Power projection nerfed! /s

Try an hour. Crossing our own territory in fatigue-bonused industrials takes an hour.

Interceptors do it in 30 minutes, without using jump bridges or titan bridges.




You decided to cross the Universe.. but if your objective is to get to 10 LY away, depending on the part of the universe it will be faster trough the hualer.

AND the hauler movement cannot be detected or intercepted so easily . Something that is MORE important military wise than the speed of movement itself.

Compared to how catchable interceptors are?

Hint: interceptors enjoy a role bonus that prevents them from being caught by bubbles.
Hint two: Jump bridges are confined to one per system. This means you have to take gates in between. Jump bridges provide static routes through space, which can be discerned beforehand and camped. Interceptors can vary their route to avoid the infinitesimal dangers they do face while traveling.

Why aren't you all focusing your efforts on the interceptor instead? It just boggles the mind that so much effort is going into trying (poorly, I might add) to prove one edge case where a T1 industrial might have an edge, when you could be attacking the root of the problem instead.

I suspect the motives here are disingenuous and have more to do with maintaining the supremacy of interceptors than they do with the surface goal, but that could just be paranoia talking. I don't know for sure.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#796 - 2014-10-10 15:38:21 UTC
Tiberizzle wrote:
a bonus to covert jump portal fatigue is stupid

bomber siegefleets are one of the most effective tools in the sov null strategic toolbox and nearly everyone has a combat T3 doctrine, which can carry a depot and refit in space to a minimal mass covert/nullified travel fit

pretty much the absolute last thing the game needs is everything except low-counterability, non-content-generating coward strategies and convenience features to be kneecapped in the name of nerfing force projection while the most egregious examples of content avoidance tactics are buffed stratospherically


This isn't the only change we're making to bombers in this release.

Catt Stevens wrote:
Greyscale CAN I HAVE YOUR BABIES!!!!!!


No, I need them for dinner.

Zifrian wrote:
Can someone explain to me why jump freighters and rorquals jump ranges limit "force projection"? I just don't get why they are part of these changes at all.


We've specifically avoided using the term "force projection" because it carries a lot of baggage with it. They're part of the changes because a) we want jump systems to work in a unified way, and b) we were originally of the opinion that this was a good opportunity to rein in their power too, which we've since changed our minds on. a) still stands, though.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#797 - 2014-10-10 15:41:15 UTC
What if we did this a little different.

The jump fatigue and range changes to capitals excluding the Jump Freighter, are absolutely fine. However, what if jump freighters had a fatigue-reduction bonus of 125% rather than 90%? Not only could you haul some things, but you could actually earn back fatigue credit. Now, before you say I'm crazy or just trolling, just remember that I am not advocating giving this Fatigue Eater bonus to other industrials. That would be lunacy.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#798 - 2014-10-10 15:42:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

WHY WOULD THE HAULER USE A GATE DAMMIT? At least not more than 1 every jump bridge sump. Since it can use the bridges to move fast and without chance of being detected . You can move 300 Pilots more QUIETELY this way than with interceptors depending on the geography of the region.

yeah, see, this is another brain-dead argument by someone who has never been in nullsec

i don't get 300 pilots without broadcasting enough the spies all know to tune in
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#799 - 2014-10-10 15:47:53 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

If YOU are uanble to use your brain that is not MY PROGBLEM.

the ironing is delicious

"god its so easy, just pre-position tons of industrials, swap out after every single jb jump to an interceptor, take one gate, dock, swap back to an industrial, undock, use the jb, dock, swap back to an interceptor, undock, take one gate, dock, swap back to another prepositioned haulerm, undock, take the jb (whoops you used it before your 5m timer was up fatigue has started accumulating hard) dock, swap back to the prepositioned interceptor, undock..."

oh wait, the session changes

"god its so easy, just pre-position tons of industrials, swap out after every single jb jump to an interceptor, take one gate, dock *session change timer* swap back to an industrial,*session change timer* undock *session change timer* use the jb dock up *session change timer* swap back to an interceptor *session change timer* undock *session change timer* take one gate dock up *session change timer* swap back to another prepositioned hauler *session change timer* undock *session change timer*take the jb (whoops you used it before your 5m timer was up fatigue has started accumulating hard) dock up swap back to the prepositioned interceptor undock..."


god that's so easy compared to every system taking like five seconds in an interceptor man everyone is going to do it
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#800 - 2014-10-10 15:48:00 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Tiberizzle wrote:
a bonus to covert jump portal fatigue is stupid

bomber siegefleets are one of the most effective tools in the sov null strategic toolbox and nearly everyone has a combat T3 doctrine, which can carry a depot and refit in space to a minimal mass covert/nullified travel fit

pretty much the absolute last thing the game needs is everything except low-counterability, non-content-generating coward strategies and convenience features to be kneecapped in the name of nerfing force projection while the most egregious examples of content avoidance tactics are buffed stratospherically


This isn't the only change we're making to bombers in this release.

Bombers aren't really the issue to which he refers. Bombers are pretty easy to destroy. It's the other stuff you can stuff into a covert jump portal, such as covert strategic cruisers, and the blackops battleships themselves. (Yes, you can bridge blackops BS in lieu of using their built-in jump drives -- it eats a lot of fuel, but the 50% reduction in fatigue makes it worthwhile.)

It seems somewhat misleading to announce broad reductions in power to jumping and bridging, while maintaining (and, in fact, augmenting!) the power of the blackops BS drop in the same breath. Most of this has to do with the range -- that they enjoy an outsized range bonus seems too powerful, especially in concert with their reduced fatigue.

I can make the same arguments about Jump Freighters too, but I get why you're special casing them -- the state of nullsec industry is such that the umbilical cord to empire cannot yet be cut, and that it's a work in progress. I'm not HAPPY about it, but I understand why you're doing it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.