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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#801 - 2014-10-10 15:48:11 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
The status quo will now be maintained. The blue donut and vast rental empires will stay as they are. Good job CCP. I guess placating mittens is more important than saving your game and your company after all.


Another good example of the bad thinking I'm preaching against, mainly because it displays no willingness to entertain the idea that the changes could have made the "mittens" and "blue donuts" of the EVE world WORSE than they are right now.

At the very least, the 'loosening' of the jump range nerfs means that NPC null doesn't get the super shaft that was aimed at it.



You know what would help a LOT, actually, is if CCP actually alluded to the other things that they have planned for later.

It would probably help everyone as it is literally impossible to take part 1 of a 3 phase plan and hold it on overal merits if we do not know parts 2 and 3 even loosely. Specifics are not required - just something of the greater plan we can hold these changes up against.

At this point (to use a crappy TV analogy) we are basically arguing about whodunnit after watching part 1 of a 3 part TV murder mystery show!


We're not ready to share more than what's already in the blog, sorry.

Dwissi wrote:
That is not CCPs fault but the players fault. There seems to be a misconception of what goals are. CCPs goals have to be to prevent too many from reaching THE end goal to keep the game interesting and dynamic somehow. Where as a player your goal is to reach that end goal and try to gather as much information upfront to prepare and succeed. Both concepts are completely opposite to each other which makes people start making assumptions, throwing bones and predicting futures out of it - not to mention all those fantastic crystal balls everyone seems to have. With every prediction CCP will adjust and change course to prevent too much of it actually happening and the circle starts a new round.


Astute observations here.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#802 - 2014-10-10 15:48:39 UTC
A question for CCP Greyscale: If one of the goals of these, and future, changes is to get nullsec industry to become more self-sufficient, wouldn't it make sense to focus more on limiting the moving of goods (i.e. changing hauler movement mechanics) between empire and nullsec than to focus on limiting the movement of goods period? If you want nullsec industry to take off, it needs to be easy to move goods within your own territory, and to encourage that growth it needs to be hard to import materials into nullsec from empire.

No particular suggestion here, just a question/observation.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#803 - 2014-10-10 15:53:05 UTC
To throw something completely different into the entire discussion i would like to quote something from Eve - The book Vers.1.4:

'In an average binary system the jump gate has a range of around 5 light-years,
provided the jump gate is constructed on the third resonance node.'

The 5 LY distance isnt something CCP just popped out of nothing - its a basic part of the lore and history Eve is build on.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#804 - 2014-10-10 15:54:39 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

If YOU are uanble to use your brain that is not MY PROGBLEM.

the ironing is delicious

"god its so easy, just pre-position tons of industrials, swap out after every single jb jump to an interceptor, take one gate, dock, swap back to an industrial, undock, use the jb, dock, swap back to an interceptor, undock, take one gate, dock, swap back to another prepositioned haulerm, undock, take the jb (whoops you used it before your 5m timer was up fatigue has started accumulating hard) dock, swap back to the prepositioned interceptor, undock..."

oh wait, the session changes

"god its so easy, just pre-position tons of industrials, swap out after every single jb jump to an interceptor, take one gate, dock *session change timer* swap back to an industrial,*session change timer* undock *session change timer* use the jb dock up *session change timer* swap back to an interceptor *session change timer* undock *session change timer* take one gate dock up *session change timer* swap back to another prepositioned hauler *session change timer* undock *session change timer*take the jb (whoops you used it before your 5m timer was up fatigue has started accumulating hard) dock up swap back to the prepositioned interceptor undock..."


god that's so easy compared to every system taking like five seconds in an interceptor man everyone is going to do it



DUDE!! You do not even understand the mechanics? WHY to swap to the interceptor then to the hauler again? The fatigue is on YOU!!

And if you cannot move 1 2 mil isk hauler ahead of the others on the SINGLE jump between jump bridges, then your group is absolutely incompetent!

No. Smart people will travel inside their empires with haulers if the geography means that they do not need to expose their fleet and the direct trough gate routes woudl expose. And they will jump to the interceptor when they get near the border of their territory.

Need someoen to draw for you?Because I think even a 7 year old can understand that.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#805 - 2014-10-10 15:55:28 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus


just out of curiosity let us suppose the battle rorqual fleet was deployed

how long do you think we'd have to play around with it before it got nerfed :sun:
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#806 - 2014-10-10 15:56:12 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus


just out of curiosity let us suppose the battle rorqual fleet was deployed

how long do you think we'd have to play around with it before it got nerfed :sun:

6 weeks?
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#807 - 2014-10-10 15:56:47 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


This isn't the only change we're making to bombers in this release.



I hope a change to bombers you aren't planning is to cause cloaked ships to decloak other cloaked ships, as seems to be the case on SISI. That would relegate bombers back to the dustbin like they were before that change was made a few years ago.

More importantly though, I hope you aren't making these changes to bombers because they have been abused by those using ISBoxer. Get rid of ISBoxer, don't destroy the functionality of bombers
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#808 - 2014-10-10 15:57:29 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus


just out of curiosity let us suppose the battle rorqual fleet was deployed

how long do you think we'd have to play around with it before it got nerfed :sun:

6 weeks?


Less - patches can be deployed outside regular scheduled releases

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#809 - 2014-10-10 15:57:43 UTC
Querns wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:

Well yeah, when you follow goons mantra of just "dock up and blue ball them until they get disinterested and don't come back" of course it's not fun for anyone. The real fun is when you send the freighter through the gate first to make sure you get everyone agressed and then jump the rest of the fleet and cyno in all of your archons...oh wait....sorry...too soon?Bear

Yes, let's use our paper thin freighters holding up to 35b apiece as bait.

Rational people don't let this happen.


Rational people wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket either but hey you guys just keep doing what you're doing. See that right there is the problem with you null bears, you are exactly the kind of people who expect easy, instant gratification...moving that kind of value, I.e. 35bil a piece, should never have anything but beyond impossible tagged to it. The fact that you can move that kind of value from highsec out to nullsec with such ease just validates the point that it should be significantly harder and put at significantly higher risk.


Here's a novel idea, given the size of freighters and the massive cargo hold of them, why not take into consideration all of the m3 of the contents being moved inside the freighter in addition to the freighters mass. It would make Titan bridging freighters or having them jump through a JB cost a about a billion in fuel.

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#810 - 2014-10-10 16:01:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Before I start with specifics:

The general intent here is to be as sure as possible that we achieve our goals over the long run, while placing as few limitations as possible. There are various ideas being thrown around, of varying degrees of plausibility, for circumventing these changes. Some may actually end up being practical, most probably won't. Rather than nerfing everything into the ground up front, we'd rather catch the really obvious stuff first and then see how the game plays out. You *can* HG-Ascendency a super to move it around, sure, but by the same token you *can* get an officer neut to fit on a Curse. We like it when people occasionally do weird, unexpected things with the tools we give them, but we step in when such cases become both common and counter to goals.

If any of these things become commonplace, we will very likely nerf them. Here's a list of things that have been up, some reasons as to why we're skeptical of their utility, and a sample of the sort of nerf we'd be likely to do to counter them:

- Setting up caches of ships and jump cloning to them
-- Difficulty and cost of setting up and maintaining caches of sufficient size and density
-- Limit jump clone usage furtehr
- Ascendancy capitals
-- Risks involved, rarity of key items
-- Reduce bonuses hyperspatial whatsamajigs give to supers
- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus
- T1 hauler redeployment
-- Risk of moving your whole fleet in T1 haulers, bridging or no
-- Nerf hauler fatigue bonus
- Using JFs to move your fleet
-- Requires everyone to train for and own a JF, requires you to fly round in an unescorted fleet of JFs
-- We're going to nerf JFs evenutally, if we have to tackle this in the meantime we'll think of something
- Blockade-runner/black ops fleet movement
-- Need to have BO stationed everywhere to pull it off
-- Nerf BR bonuses
- Roaming fast-warp carrier gangs
-- It's a gimmick, there's probably a good counter
-- Delete carriers from game (kidding, unfortunately, but we'll think of something)


#1 comment: It seems to me that y'all still underestimate the lengths your players are willing to go to to avoid the intent of your game designs.

#2 is a question. You've been doing this (developing EVE) for a while I know. Has a 'reactive nerfing' stance (aka 'emergent gameplay wackamole when people figure out ways around you guys game design) ever succeeded in helping you attain the goals you want to see for the game? I ask that honestly, because from where I'm sitting (as a layman and outsider) it really doesn't seem so.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#811 - 2014-10-10 16:03:01 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
To throw something completely different into the entire discussion i would like to quote something from Eve - The book Vers.1.4:

'In an average binary system the jump gate has a range of around 5 light-years,
provided the jump gate is constructed on the third resonance node.'

The 5 LY distance isnt something CCP just popped out of nothing - its a basic part of the lore and history Eve is build on.

And I also just realized that it makes sense that Jump Freighters and Black Ops have longer range than 5LY from a lore standpoint: they're both T2 ships, so it makes sense that their jump drives would be more advanced.

Now, if only CCP would merge the lore with the changes, I think people would have a much easier time swallowing them.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#812 - 2014-10-10 16:03:02 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:

Rational people wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket either but hey you guys just keep doing what you're doing. See that right there is the problem with you null bears, you are exactly the kind of people who expect easy, instant gratification...moving that kind of value, I.e. 35bil a piece, should never have anything but beyond impossible tagged to it. The fact that you can move that kind of value from highsec out to nullsec with such ease just validates the point that it should be significantly harder and put at significantly higher risk.


Here's a novel idea, given the size of freighters and the massive cargo hold of them, why not take into consideration all of the m3 of the contents being moved inside the freighter in addition to the freighters mass. It would make Titan bridging freighters or having them jump through a JB cost a about a billion in fuel.

It's rather ironic that you used the word "egg," because an egg is exactly what I meant by 35b -- the top tier outpost upgrade platform (the monument) is a single item that is 750k m^3 and costs 14.4b, and it looks like an egg when you deploy it in space. You have no choice but to use freighters to get this item into nullsec. You have to put all your egg (singular) into one basket in this case.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Pen Ris
Eden Risk Management
#813 - 2014-10-10 16:03:52 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
If you want nullsec industry to take off, it needs to be easy to move goods within your own territory, and to encourage that growth it needs to be hard to import materials into nullsec from empire.


A better test would be making more design changes then increasing JF ranges to 100au and finding that none of JFer pilots want to go to empire.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#814 - 2014-10-10 16:05:33 UTC
Querns wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:

Rational people wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket either but hey you guys just keep doing what you're doing. See that right there is the problem with you null bears, you are exactly the kind of people who expect easy, instant gratification...moving that kind of value, I.e. 35bil a piece, should never have anything but beyond impossible tagged to it. The fact that you can move that kind of value from highsec out to nullsec with such ease just validates the point that it should be significantly harder and put at significantly higher risk.


Here's a novel idea, given the size of freighters and the massive cargo hold of them, why not take into consideration all of the m3 of the contents being moved inside the freighter in addition to the freighters mass. It would make Titan bridging freighters or having them jump through a JB cost a about a billion in fuel.

It's rather ironic that you used the word "egg," because an egg is exactly what I meant by 35b -- the top tier outpost upgrade platform (the monument) is a single item that is 750k m^3 and costs 14.4b, and it looks like an egg when you deploy it in space. You have no choice but to use freighters to get this item into nullsec. You have to put all your egg (singular) into one basket in this case.

yeah, and the other 20b is in the other egg freighters that have to accompany it

plus, an outpost egg alone is like 25b and must be freightered
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#815 - 2014-10-10 16:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
Bronson Hughes wrote:
A question for CCP Greyscale: If one of the goals of these, and future, changes is to get nullsec industry to become more self-sufficient, wouldn't it make sense to focus more on limiting the moving of goods (i.e. changing hauler movement mechanics) between empire and nullsec than to focus on limiting the movement of goods period? If you want nullsec industry to take off, it needs to be easy to move goods within your own territory, and to encourage that growth it needs to be hard to import materials into nullsec from empire.

No particular suggestion here, just a question/observation.

this is dumb

the issue is there is no cost-effective way to get the materials locally (and for many materials, no way period). hence, the absolute necessity of importing materials

for a while null industry had no advantages that made it worth importing materials instead of just finished products since it was easier to build in empire, but that's now changed a little bit
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#816 - 2014-10-10 16:07:41 UTC
I would say that it isn't so much any particular rivulet of entitlement making us pack so much value into a freighter as it is actual game mechanics forcing us to do so. But, hey -- don't let me stop you from spouting a completely uninformed opinion that falls flat in the face of reality.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#817 - 2014-10-10 16:20:12 UTC
I'm still worried about the view that the drone bonus is more important on the Rorqual than it's jump range.

One thing that I think is overlooked is the fact that newbies lose their pods. A lot. And they can't fly interceptors to get through gate camps and such. I think that the new cloning changes unfairly hurt them.

I wish you could have two sets of rules, one for players under 3 months, another for players over 3 months. This is from their character age, not their account age or their SP. (Account age might be hard to measure, SP is stupid because 800k cyno clones)

Under 3 months, change clone at will to anywhere. Maybe even if they don't have an office there, let them be silly. Let them get around the universe with ease, not like they can fly much more than a BC competently anyway. Maybe you just count rookie corp members under this group, permanently.

After 3 months, they should know better by then, they're restricted to the current location and their home newbie station.

I really would like to see this expanded, since people with jump clones (ie established null secers and mission runners) are unfairly advantaged. But Eve is extremely unfriendly to solo newbies so I understand the nerf.
Zifrian
Aideron Robotics
#818 - 2014-10-10 16:21:25 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Zifrian wrote:
Can someone explain to me why jump freighters and rorquals jump ranges limit "force projection"? I just don't get why they are part of these changes at all.


We've specifically avoided using the term "force projection" because it carries a lot of baggage with it. They're part of the changes because a) we want jump systems to work in a unified way, and b) we were originally of the opinion that this was a good opportunity to rein in their power too, which we've since changed our minds on. a) still stands, though.

Thanks

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Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#819 - 2014-10-10 16:21:34 UTC
For nullsec industry to take off, we need the following things:

-Null Ore anomalies need less high end ores, and more low ends (specifically those that provide mexallon)
-We need to be able to build all station components, rather than components being NPC only items from highsec

With those two changes, null will be able to take off for all regions. The logistical nightmare of upgrading stations is not fun or beneficial for anyone. When is the last time an egg has been killed in transit?

If anyone in null is able to build station components from their location, that opens up a plethora of opportunities to organize meaningful mining operations and give goals to anyone that lives in nullsec.

Once people in nullsec are able to source meaningful amounts (and distribution) of the most basic of t1 materials, then nullsec industry will take off. The ability for people to build stations locally will enable them to upgrade their space without having to have multiple titans to bounce NPC goods from highsec.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#820 - 2014-10-10 16:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
A question for CCP Greyscale: If one of the goals of these, and future, changes is to get nullsec industry to become more self-sufficient, wouldn't it make sense to focus more on limiting the moving of goods (i.e. changing hauler movement mechanics) between empire and nullsec than to focus on limiting the movement of goods period? If you want nullsec industry to take off, it needs to be easy to move goods within your own territory, and to encourage that growth it needs to be hard to import materials into nullsec from empire.

No particular suggestion here, just a question/observation.

this is dumb

the issue is there is no cost-effective way to get the materials locally (and for many materials, no way period). hence, the absolute necessity of importing materials

for a while null industry had no advantages that made it worth importing materials instead of just finished products since it was easier to build in empire, but that's now changed a little bit

That was kind of my point, albeit in a roundabout way. Limiting the movement of goods can only encourage local industry if there are sufficient local materials.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs