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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Rahelis
Doomheim
#821 - 2014-10-10 16:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rahelis
Much respect for CCP Grey and his team - keep up your vision of EVE and make it real.

I appreciate that you even discuss matters with the players - this is the attitude I wanted to see. I know that many vet players have deep insight into the game and can be assets to improve EVE - if they are heared.


Some ppl on the other hand will try to twist everything for petty reasons - so live game design is always a difficult balance.

Keep it up - great efforts so far!


I for the first time are now interested in null and living and producing there.
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#822 - 2014-10-10 16:30:16 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus

How about just dropping the pointless combat bonuses and give it logistical bonuses for the time being.

Mr Omniblivion wrote:
For nullsec industry to take off, we need the following things:

-Null Ore anomalies need less high end ores, and more low ends (specifically those that provide mexallon)
-We need to be able to build all station components, rather than components being NPC only items from highsec


Don't forget:

Ihub upgrades
Regional moon materials
Regional Ice

And to a lesser extent (as they're much easier to import):
Implants
High-meta level gear
Blueprints
Speedkermit Damo
Death by Design.
#823 - 2014-10-10 16:32:01 UTC
Odelll wrote:
Anyone else concerned by the new black ops concessions?

Here is what I fear;


  1. Fleets of T3 refitting to covert ops to use the 8AU range of BOP
  2. Cloaky Haulers being used to transport logistics
  3. bridge all the way to friendly/NPC station and refit back into combat


-90% reduction on the hauler fatigue
-50% on the t3

90% of all fleets these days are T3+Logi

The Black ops are more accessible than titans, this looks to make long distance travel of T3 fleets much easier. Most of the supporting fleets these days are not capital but sub-capital t3 to bluster defensive fleets.

Onto the 90% reduction of fatigue for haulers, as most doctrine ships can fit inside a hauler with fittings and ammo I fail to see why jumpbridges just don't have a 10% fatigue instead.


Yes, this will be abused to hell and back.

Power projection was nerfed for a few heady days, now it's back to stagnation and ever declining subs

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Speedkermit Damo
Death by Design.
#824 - 2014-10-10 16:34:08 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
would one of the many idiots who think an industrial through jump bridges will ever be faster than a taxi interceptor post a video proving it

i look forward to the utter lack of videos as you discover an interceptor will always be faster in any reasonable situation


Can interceptors carry ships, fittings and ammo in their cargo bays?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#825 - 2014-10-10 16:38:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Rather than nerfing everything into the ground up front, we'd rather catch the really obvious stuff first and then see how the game plays out.


Couldn't agree more. So why was the first devblog so focused on nerfing it all into the ground? Just to get a rise out of the community? Because now we have those who were happy with nerfing it into the ground being made to feel like you are "caving in", when in fact you are taking a logical, methodical approach. But before that we had to experience the threadnaught where those who saw it as unnecessarily aggressive were forced to point out a lot of very obvious issues.

Glad you finally got to this point, but not sure it had to take this path
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#826 - 2014-10-10 16:39:13 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
would one of the many idiots who think an industrial through jump bridges will ever be faster than a taxi interceptor post a video proving it

i look forward to the utter lack of videos as you discover an interceptor will always be faster in any reasonable situation


Can interceptors carry ships, fittings and ammo in their cargo bays?

No, but jump freighters can. They're much more efficient at the task, too.

Also, you can't have it both ways -- the travel Wreathe being posted here has a staggering 13k m^3 cargo. Deep Space Transports can better manage the hauling needs, but they are extremely slow to align and warp, even when fit for the task. (Doing this, incidentally, comes at a significant cost to their ability to tank and travel.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#827 - 2014-10-10 16:40:32 UTC
xttz wrote:

Mr Omniblivion wrote:
For nullsec industry to take off, we need the following things:

-Null Ore anomalies need less high end ores, and more low ends (specifically those that provide mexallon)
-We need to be able to build all station components, rather than components being NPC only items from highsec


Don't forget:

Ihub upgrades
Regional moon materials
Regional Ice

And to a lesser extent (as they're much easier to import):
Implants
High-meta level gear
Blueprints


I would add Ihub upgrades, but regional moon materials and ice are not issues. Moons are conflict drivers and drive trade, regional ice isn't in a high enough demand to seed everywhere (the price is just going to continually tank until a meaningful change is made).

The difference with ore and raw minerals is that there are "infinite amounts" already in nullsec, but the distribution of that infinite amount is heavily skewed towards high ends and severely short in mexallon. This is why zydrine has taken an absolute dump and why megacyte is trending to be less valuable than nocxium. The surplus of zydrine and mega has made Arkonor - supposedly the most rare and valuable ore in the game- one of the worst ores to mine, if not *the* worst.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#828 - 2014-10-10 16:46:39 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus


just out of curiosity let us suppose the battle rorqual fleet was deployed

how long do you think we'd have to play around with it before it got nerfed :sun:


Depends how funny we found it, I think.
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#829 - 2014-10-10 16:47:19 UTC
xttz wrote:


Mr Omniblivion wrote:
For nullsec industry to take off, we need the following things:

-Null Ore anomalies need less high end ores, and more low ends (specifically those that provide mexallon)
-We need to be able to build all station components, rather than components being NPC only items from highsec


Don't forget:

Ihub upgrades
Regional moon materials
Regional Ice

And to a lesser extent (as they're much easier to import):
Implants
High-meta level gear
Blueprints


Also tiny in volume but, people often forget that salvage, from rats at least, is also regional.

Try getting armor plates or alloyed grit bars in Dek.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#830 - 2014-10-10 16:50:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus


just out of curiosity let us suppose the battle rorqual fleet was deployed

how long do you think we'd have to play around with it before it got nerfed :sun:


Depends how funny we found it, I think.

What kind of funny are we talking here? Like, does it count if we paint clowns on the side of the rorqual?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#831 - 2014-10-10 16:51:33 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus


just out of curiosity let us suppose the battle rorqual fleet was deployed

how long do you think we'd have to play around with it before it got nerfed :sun:


Depends how funny we found it, I think.


I think we just found the new end boss on the forumsShocked

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#832 - 2014-10-10 16:53:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
The status quo will now be maintained. The blue donut and vast rental empires will stay as they are. Good job CCP. I guess placating mittens is more important than saving your game and your company after all.


Another good example of the bad thinking I'm preaching against, mainly because it displays no willingness to entertain the idea that the changes could have made the "mittens" and "blue donuts" of the EVE world WORSE than they are right now.

At the very least, the 'loosening' of the jump range nerfs means that NPC null doesn't get the super shaft that was aimed at it.



You know what would help a LOT, actually, is if CCP actually alluded to the other things that they have planned for later.

It would probably help everyone as it is literally impossible to take part 1 of a 3 phase plan and hold it on overal merits if we do not know parts 2 and 3 even loosely. Specifics are not required - just something of the greater plan we can hold these changes up against.

At this point (to use a crappy TV analogy) we are basically arguing about whodunnit after watching part 1 of a 3 part TV murder mystery show!


We're not ready to share more than what's already in the blog, sorry.


Fair play, appreciate the honesty.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#833 - 2014-10-10 16:55:15 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Is there any idea when you'll allow Carriers into Highsec?

Can it be done by Phoebe?


No, it's technically trivial, the main work is in working through all the likely consequences and resolving any problems, and that'll take time.

Can you be more specific?

The only advantage to having a Carrier is the Drones and Capital modules...(unless I'm wrong.)

Prevent anything involving the word "Capital" in its module name from being activated in Highsec. Just like bombs and interdiction probes.

Prevent Fighters and more then 5 regular drones being deployed in Highsec.

...

Overlord Invictus
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#834 - 2014-10-10 17:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Overlord Invictus
CCP Greyscale wrote:
afkalt wrote:

You know what would help a LOT, actually, is if CCP actually alluded to the other things that they have planned for later.

It would probably help everyone as it is literally impossible to take part 1 of a 3 phase plan and hold it on overal merits if we do not know parts 2 and 3 even loosely. Specifics are not required - just something of the greater plan we can hold these changes up against.

At this point (to use a crappy TV analogy) we are basically arguing about whodunnit after watching part 1 of a 3 part TV murder mystery show!


We're not ready to share more than what's already in the blog, sorry.


So we have to believe in you that what we are going to get in part 1 of the trilogy will be exonerated by parts 2 and 3?

When you've already rolled back on parts of part 1 because you were narrow minded.

and when you've openly said you cannot fathom the effects of part 1, 2 and 3 combined and if it will fix things or break them even further. Because doing so is boring. im so so so sorry that sometimes your work has dull and 'hard' elements to it Greyscale. thats why they call it work.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

If we can predict the consequences of changes we make, players will be able to (some of you are always smarter than us), and changes that can be predicted are changes that can be solved, and solved problems are boring. If we can know what the exact consequences will be for changes we're making, we've already failed.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#835 - 2014-10-10 17:02:59 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


(Jump freighter depowering is necessary but not sufficient for nullsec near-self-sufficiency.)



A very succinct summary of the situation, to be annoyingly alliterative. Very much looking forward to seeing the rest of the nullsec industry picture.
The Cue
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#836 - 2014-10-10 17:03:40 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Darryl Brown wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Black Ops fatigue is a value we're happy to tune, within a reasonable range. Make a case for a number and we'll listen :)


Oooh, ooh, pick me!

Combat black ops drops (e.g. Falcon tackles Rattlesnake in a Sanctum, lights covert cyno, two Panthers and a Sin jump in and kill Rattlesnake) are great fun. They add value to Eve because ratting with neuts or reds in local should be risky. They're not perfect; the target might be pre-aligned to a safe, loaded with warp core stabilizers, handy with an AB and MJD, or bait for a counter-drop. Blops drops depend upon stealth, patience, and mobility. The primary weapon is surprise - and jumping to the hunter cyno is essential for the surprise to work.

Here's how things work currently:
The hunter roams through a region, dodging gate camps and looking wistfully at shiny ships in POSes. At last! He spots a target in an anomaly. Things happen quickly - decloak, tackle, cyno, blops bses jump in, target dies, cyno down, scoop the loot, leave the scene. The black ops battleships wait for jump cap and then return to the staging system via jump. The hunter moves on in search of the next target.

Here's how things would work with a 5ly jump with these revised changes:
Hunter cyno goes up, Blops ships jump in, kill the target, and wait for 1+2.5 minutes before the jump cool-down expires. If they jump 5ly to the exit cyno after 3.5 minutes with 3.15 fatigue they get 3.15 x 3.5 = 11.025 fatigue and are done for the day. If they choose to wait in the system for at least 25 minutes, their fatigue drops below 1 and the next jump isn't quite so painful.

Assuming they're adaptive folks - they have abandoned the practice of always returning to the staging system and instead wait to jump directly to the next target. Either way - there is no point in continuing to hunt for 20+ minutes until the combat blops pilots' fatigue is reduced. This is not fun. Although I suppose the hunter could go around and do "catch and release" fishing for a bit. How about taking gates? Combat blops ships are certainly better than most ships at navigating bubble camps (better speed while cloaked, can fit MJDs), but they're also pricey and fragile. Plus, they warp at 2.2au/s, so warping from in-gate to target is not feasible.

I think a -50% fatigue factor is better than the original proposal but still extremely constraining. The added range (8 vs. 7.5ish) is nice, but this iteration would still mean 1-2 potential kills per session. Currently the limiting factors are all based on player behavior: Can you catch someone? Did they use their intel network and successfully avoid you?

Counter-point to what I just said:
If the blops jump drive (or covert bridge) receives a gentler nerf than this current iteration (as I think it should), it could potentially serve as a work-around for the consequences of other changes to movement in Phoebe. This is already the case for Jump Freighters-as-taxis (and industrials?), but Blops ships are considerably cheaper and more accessible (and covert bridges would be even more accessible).

In conclusion, I would be really sad if Phoebe removed the viability of blops drops from EVE. I am in favor of the vision behind Phoebe, but I really don't want blops ships to be collateral damage and I hope that you don't, too.


Excellent, thank you :)


Might I suggest that instead of a decrease in fatigue accrued bonus, BlOps receive a nullification of fatigue for so long as they jump back to the system that they left without changing systems inbetween.

What I mean is, BlOps is in system a, target is in system b. jump 1 takes the BlOps from system a to system b. This jump gives them normal fatigue. If jump 2 takes them from system b to system a and they haven't moved systems inbetween(so they're just returning to base), they don't gain any fatigue from jump 2. This basically doubles the number of BlOps drops achievable in a casual sitting without giving any bonus that can be gamed to power projection beyond the 50% bonus that's already been suggested.
Drak Fel
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#837 - 2014-10-10 17:08:49 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Setting up caches of ships and jump cloning to them
-- Difficulty and cost of setting up and maintaining caches of sufficient size and density
-- Limit jump clone usage furtehr
- Ascendancy capitals
-- Risks involved, rarity of key items
-- Reduce bonuses hyperspatial whatsamajigs give to supers
- Battle rorqual
-- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway
-- Reduced/removed drone bonus
- T1 hauler redeployment
-- Risk of moving your whole fleet in T1 haulers, bridging or no
-- Nerf hauler fatigue bonus
- Using JFs to move your fleet
-- Requires everyone to train for and own a JF, requires you to fly round in an unescorted fleet of JFs
-- We're going to nerf JFs evenutally, if we have to tackle this in the meantime we'll think of something
- Blockade-runner/black ops fleet movement
-- Need to have BO stationed everywhere to pull it off
-- Nerf BR bonuses
- Roaming fast-warp carrier gangs
-- It's a gimmick, there's probably a good counter
-- Delete carriers from game (kidding, unfortunately, but we'll think of something)


So basically what you're saying is, don't do anything that can give you an advantage or we will nerf it to the ground. Not much of a sandbox.
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
Get Off My Lawn
#838 - 2014-10-10 17:11:37 UTC
I still think allowing Doomsdays in Low sec will result in absolute chaos but the rest of it I can live with for now. I do, however, strongly advise all of you at CCP to pull your bloody finger out and not simply reform sov but enhance the risk vs. reward ratio of 0.0 compared to living anywhere else in Empire with the utmost urgency. If you want it to be hard as hell to live there, it has to be worth it. Right now it, quite frankly it is not and these changes should have been the end of the null sec overhaul, not the beginning.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#839 - 2014-10-10 17:12:50 UTC
Drak Fel wrote:
So basically what you're saying is, don't do anything that can give you an advantage or we will nerf it to the ground. Not much of a sandbox.

I'd say it's more "expect something that gives an outsized, game-breaking advantage to get toned down."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#840 - 2014-10-10 17:13:42 UTC
CameronCZ wrote:
This is not funny, ppl in my alliance started selling Capitals like mad...



Then your alliance is full of stupid people. Because here is what is going to happen. Someone is going to store capitals near by and when they see you dont have any, they will have a slow boat capital invasion that you cannot defend against.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.