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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Degalo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#761 - 2014-10-10 15:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Degalo
Dream Five wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Sure, because Jump Freighters are what holds empires together. If the troops can't hold the space or the moons because of the "force projection" nerfs then it wont matter if a jump freighter can more easily pick up anything ie trade goods, ships/mods, moongoo, etc.


Its both. Unnerffing JFs just means the status quo for logistics is preserved and nullsec industry will never develop. Why bother building in nullsec when you can JF from Jita in safety?



I'm thinking there is already an incentive to build in 0.0 - discounts and lower cost indices as well as not having to haul the ore and pay for fuel to haul the said stuff from highsec. The problem is there's no large reliable market to sell stuff so you have to build one offs which is counterproductive. Making logistics more difficult will not increase demand in 0.0.. Unless i'm missing something nobody will build that much more stuff in 0.0 just because logistics is harder..


It's not the market for products - it's the materials.

Even for T1 stuff, materials are not available in null in sufficient quantities to supply what's needed to keep ships flowing. Some minerals aren't available at all.

For T2, the problem is even worse, as some materials aren't even available in the region. Same goes for ice products.

So, with the current state of null industry, you'd see basic T1 ships in fleets, and that's it - if you lose it, if may be some time before you can get another one. Nothing would be worse for null than people being forced to leave due to the lack of ships to fly.

Additionally, there are times when all of New Eden industry cannot keep up with the demands for ships/modules for nullsec, as the entire cluster will go dry on certain ships/modules. If the whole thing cannot keep up with the rate of destruction, how can one expect smaller production clusters with less mineral/materials to keep up?
Black Viper1
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#762 - 2014-10-10 15:01:51 UTC
Kiwinoob wrote:
[quote=Black Viper1]CCP,

2. There is a very big difference between holding space and holding vast amounts of space. Yes it makes holding a small amount of space easier but it makes holding large amounts of space without sufficient manpower harder.


3. People don't seem to understand how markets work. It doesn't matter what CCP does - people in hi-sec demand goods from null and the price will continue to rise until it's worth while for people to make the trip. The only difference is that T2 items will cost more but I haven't heard a single hi-sec person complaining about that. We're not that fussed.

4. You cant nerf travel without nerfing travel. There is no way to make it harder to move long distances quickly while also making it easy for people to move long distances quickly. In fact - this is one of the criticisms of the haulage ships getting a reduction in fatigue. It's an relatively easy avenue for abuse of the new mechanic.


2. Yes to an extent however all the big null entities have to do it have stores of caps available at several locations so they can reach all of there space. Since they no longer will have to worry about a counter drop this means that a cap escalation by the defenders won't have to be as many caps per location ready to drop the sub caps, and they will always just build more so taking space will be insanely harder

3. I understand how markets work, my point is when prices triple and keep going up high sec people will not be willing to pay those prices for those ships. Demand does factor into it, but the fact that it takes 5 times as long to get to JITA now and having to take the regional gate which means probably burning through bubbles in a JF since they are perma camped, and risking losing your JF when an enemy jumps in to fight the campers and finds a few JFs caught in the middle of a T2 bubble loaded to the brim with moon goo, means that high sec people aren't going to be willing to pay the prices that the JF pilots would want to justify that risk. A lot of null pilots really don't like going to high sec; if we can make a profit selling in NULL we will. Oh and high sec carebears don't complain?! Are we playing the same EVE and reading the same forums?! I am trying to keep your play-style a viable option for you even though I don't enjoy it myself, the least you could do is be honest, instead of crying about the GOONS, PL, NC, or HERO, why don't you go to NULL and fight them?

4. Missing the point, travel shouldn't be nerfed, this causes less content and more time just flying through empty space. Oh and saying that a ship with a jump drive should be faster through gates, then with said jump drive is like saying that you shouldn't be putting a cov ops cloak II on a cov ops ship. That's the entire point of that feature of the ship!
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#763 - 2014-10-10 15:02:41 UTC
Odelll wrote:
Anyone else concerned by the new black ops concessions?

Here is what I fear;


  1. Fleets of T3 refitting to covert ops to use the 8AU range of BOP
  2. Cloaky Haulers being used to transport logistics
  3. bridge all the way to friendly/NPC station and refit back into combat


-90% reduction on the hauler fatigue
-50% on the t3

90% of all fleets these days are T3+Logi

The Black ops are more accessible than titans, this looks to make long distance travel of T3 fleets much easier. Most of the supporting fleets these days are not capital but sub-capital t3 to bluster defensive fleets.

Onto the 90% reduction of fatigue for haulers, as most doctrine ships can fit inside a hauler with fittings and ammo I fail to see why jumpbridges just don't have a 10% fatigue instead.


even with the 90% fatigue on jf's they still have a minimum of 10mins plus range (max range is 20 mins)

the same will still be there for blops. but much greater
a 8ly jump for a blops will give a 30 min timer
Kiwinoob
Perkone
Caldari State
#764 - 2014-10-10 15:03:17 UTC
Black Viper1 wrote:


Yes the sand box does have to get its sand from somewhere that is very true, the problem is that the DEVs are saying that they don't agree with a play-style and will nerf it if people do it. It's not a nerf to a ship type it's a nerf to a play style, people would already be going outside the intended role of the rorqual by using it in this manner (and could very easily lose an expensive cap because of it) but since they paid to train the skills, and paid for the ship why can't they use it the way that they want to. If someone wants to use a ship in a certain way then that's their call, and also the entire point of a sandbox environment, when you punish people for stepping outside of the norm in combat style, or play style, then you have destroyed the concept of a sandbox. Rorquals are in need of an overhaul I agree with that; especially since the pos module that compresses ore came out this summer, but that type of thinking by the DEVs will lead to ships and play styles being rigidly locked into the roles that they approve of and not what the paying subscribers want to do in game. Balance changes and nerfs of over powered modules / ship types are one thing, but if someone wants to take a non combat ship into combat, or any other type of behavior that others may think is stupid, wasteful, etc. then let them. A sandbox is supposed to reward creativity and have room for it; further nerfing a ship type for those types of reasons only frustrate players that are trying to find new ways to enjoy the game and punishes the players that are using that ship in the "DEV approved" style.


Most of the rorgual feedback I've seen is that people are perfectly happy for it to be re-worked to be more useful in it's intended role. Most people probably bought one for it's industrial qualities.

I love the heron, I did everything in my heron when I was new to the game and still think it's the coolest looking ship on the block. It's an exploration ship but the five mid-slots mean it can be mildly competitive as a brawler too. If CCP decided to remove one of it's mid-slots and instead gave it a larger scan bonus then I'm allowed to be sad about the mid-slot but at the end of the day that ship is there for people who want to explore and CCP are actually making it better at what it should be doing.

Its fun to try and shoe-horn a MSE and MASB on there for giggles but not at the expense of people who actually want a ship that's good for exploring.




CCP please don't take away the 5th mid slot. In fact, if you could increase it's speed and give it a third turret fitting that would be great :)

Devs are nothing more than machines that turn coffee into code. The quality of the code is inversly proportional to the quality of the coffee.
CameronCZ
Tyde8
#765 - 2014-10-10 15:04:38 UTC
This is not funny, ppl in my alliance started selling Capitals like mad...
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#766 - 2014-10-10 15:06:18 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:



Can't even believe someone gave you likes for this comment. At least 2 more idiots out there.




Dont be surprised about it - you show a very clear disrespect of other peoples opinion. Name calling just dumped you down into kindergarden again. Too bad there isnt a dislike button yet


Sorry bro, I have a clear disrespect for other people's stupidity, not their opinions. Valid opinions are good. Invalid, unsubstantiated opinions should be removed by moderators to save the rest of us from the nonsense. Until they are, they get the reaction they do. And not one person would give a shite if they got disliked. Not on these forums, filled with the nonsense and idiocy that seems to permeate any potentially valid discussion.

EVE-O forums: 30% people who know what they are talking about, 20% people who obtained their knowledge from reading the forums, and 50% who don't know a damn thing about what they are talking about.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#767 - 2014-10-10 15:06:37 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
would one of the many idiots who think an industrial through jump bridges will ever be faster than a taxi interceptor post a video proving it

i look forward to the utter lack of videos as you discover an interceptor will always be faster in any reasonable situation



Not empty quoting.
Current Habit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#768 - 2014-10-10 15:06:52 UTC
CCP in charge of screwing their own power projection nerf.

1. Use barely nerfed JFs to create ship caches around the galaxy.
2. Travel in Haulers with JBs around half the map in 15min.
3. ???
4. Power projection nerfed! /s
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#769 - 2014-10-10 15:09:30 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The null-bears won this fight.

All credit to them for doing so.

I just hope CCP have learned their lesson and do not try to introduce any more changes with out prior clearance - permission from the null-sec folk.


Carebears are in charge of game design. You didn't know that?

Clue: Blue Doughnut. No one will start a war. They're all to busy making isk like good little sheep.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#770 - 2014-10-10 15:09:43 UTC
Current Habit wrote:
CCP in charge of screwing their own power projection nerf.

1. Use barely nerfed JFs to create ship caches around the galaxy.
2. Travel in Haulers with JBs around half the map in 15min.
3. ???
4. Power projection nerfed! /s

Try an hour. Crossing our own territory in fatigue-bonused industrials takes an hour.

Interceptors do it in 30 minutes, without using jump bridges or titan bridges.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#771 - 2014-10-10 15:09:46 UTC
some people still haven't cottoned on to the fact that these changes are happening no matter how much crying you do. so adapt or go play hello kitty online 2
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#772 - 2014-10-10 15:13:07 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The null-bears won this fight.

All credit to them for doing so.

I just hope CCP have learned their lesson and do not try to introduce any more changes with out prior clearance - permission from the null-sec folk.


Carebears are in charge of game design. You didn't know that?

Clue: Blue Doughnut. No one will start a war. They're all to busy making isk like good little sheep.


Blame the players for developer mistakes in letting this happen. Do you also blame the victims of terrorism for their suffering?
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#773 - 2014-10-10 15:17:34 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The null-bears won this fight.

All credit to them for doing so.

I just hope CCP have learned their lesson and do not try to introduce any more changes with out prior clearance - permission from the null-sec folk.


Carebears are in charge of game design. You didn't know that?

Clue: Blue Doughnut. No one will start a war. They're all to busy making isk like good little sheep.


Blame the players for developer mistakes in letting this happen. Do you also blame the victims of terrorism for their suffering?


Oh, you think the devs are in charge of their game? Were not playing rift or wow....... Might want to take another look around.
Josef Djugashvilis
#774 - 2014-10-10 15:18:42 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
some people still haven't cottoned on to the fact that these changes are happening no matter how much crying you do. so adapt or go play hello kitty online 2


The original changes, or the new 'nerf lite' version?

This is not a signature.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#775 - 2014-10-10 15:19:18 UTC
I miss you, Dinsdale. Please come back to us. These half-hearted attempts at tinfoil do not compare to your mastery.

RIP Dinsdale Pirannha, it's been nearly a month since you posted.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kiwinoob
Perkone
Caldari State
#776 - 2014-10-10 15:21:14 UTC
Black Viper1 wrote:

2. Yes to an extent however all the big null entities have to do it have stores of caps available at several locations so they can reach all of there space. Since they no longer will have to worry about a counter drop this means that a cap escalation by the defenders won't have to be as many caps per location ready to drop the sub caps, and they will always just build more so taking space will be insanely harder


And if they are big enough to have enough capitals at enough places and enough pilots to fly them them they get to hold all that territory. I think you'll find they are not quite that big and it will open up some territory for the smaller alliances


Black Viper1 wrote:

3. I understand how markets work, my point is when prices triple and keep going up high sec people will not be willing to pay those prices for those ships. Demand does factor into it, but the fact that it takes 5 times as long to get to JITA now and having to take the regional gate which means probably burning through bubbles in a JF since they are perma camped, and risking losing your JF when an enemy jumps in to fight the campers and finds a few JFs caught in the middle of a T2 bubble loaded to the brim with moon goo, means that high sec people aren't going to be willing to pay the prices that the JF pilots would want to justify that risk. A lot of null pilots really don't like going to high sec; if we can make a profit selling in NULL we will. Oh and high sec carebears don't complain?! Are we playing the same EVE and reading the same forums?! I am trying to keep your play-style a viable option for you even though I don't enjoy it myself, the least you could do is be honest, instead of crying about the GOONS, PL, NC, or HERO, why don't you go to NULL and fight them?


a. If hi-sec isn't willing to pay the higher prices then you are correct - they will just end up flying more T1 ships.

b. I didn't say hi-sec care-bears don't complain. I just said they weren't complaining about the higher T2 prices these changes bring.

c. I'm not complaining about the goons. Think of it this way - they won eve, good on them. However it's not much fun playing a game that's all ready been won so CCP are mixing it up a bit - starting a new(ish) game. If anything GOONS, PL, NC, blah blah blah should be happy because now they get to play a new game and try to win this one too.


Black Viper1 wrote:

4. Missing the point, travel shouldn't be nerfed, this causes less content and more time just flying through empty space.


You said it. EMPTY SPACE. No-one wants to be flying through empty space. This isn't supposed to be the worlds biggest game of marco-polo and these changes are the first step in trying to bring more people out into null so the empty space isn't so empty any more.




Devs are nothing more than machines that turn coffee into code. The quality of the code is inversly proportional to the quality of the coffee.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#777 - 2014-10-10 15:23:48 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The null-bears won this fight.

All credit to them for doing so.

I just hope CCP have learned their lesson and do not try to introduce any more changes with out prior clearance - permission from the null-sec folk.


Carebears are in charge of game design. You didn't know that?

Clue: Blue Doughnut. No one will start a war. They're all to busy making isk like good little sheep.


Blame the players for developer mistakes in letting this happen. Do you also blame the victims of terrorism for their suffering?


Oh, you think the devs are in charge of their game? Were not playing rift or wow....... Might want to take another look around.


Then why are these changes being implemented and why has CCP Greyscale said that they'll nerf anything which becomes too powerful?
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#778 - 2014-10-10 15:25:12 UTC
Querns wrote:
I miss you, Dinsdale. Please come back to us. These half-hearted attempts at tinfoil do not compare to your mastery.

RIP Dinsdale Pirannha, it's been nearly a month since you posted.


I'm pretty sure that nerfing JF's into the ground was the last nail in the coffin of hisec industry. Reversing the nerf would undoubtedly also be the last nail in the coffin of hisec industry. I'm pretty sure the middle ground would also be the last nail in the coffin. There ya go, I channeled him for you.
Wulfys Cleanup
NorCorp Security
Tactical Narcotics Team
#779 - 2014-10-10 15:26:33 UTC
CCP, i dont know where your heads are at the moment, but justfing the rorq jumprange not getting the same treatment as jumpfreighters is due to "drone bonus",
Thats just to far fetched, its and industrial logistics platform..
The right choice there should be to remove the dronebonus, and let the ship continue in one of the roles it still works in.. Logistics..
We have the orca for jumping gates for close range industrial work, the rorq needs jumprange even in the next chapter of 0.0 industry..

Some of us accually like that ship over a jumpfreighters due to its versatillity.. Its not always about isk/m3...
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#780 - 2014-10-10 15:28:41 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Ncc 1709 wrote:
some people still haven't cottoned on to the fact that these changes are happening no matter how much crying you do. so adapt or go play hello kitty online 2


The original changes, or the new 'nerf lite' version?


Not to mention they nerfed them before they could measure there effect.