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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Author
Tootenh'amon
#721 - 2014-10-10 13:03:02 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:

There's a reason people don't (usually) cheat in single player games. Having it harder can actually be a lot more fun. In eve for some reason the game has to slow down for the big, fat alliances, because their "quality of life" is more important than content generation and gameplay.

people don't cheat in single player games that are miserable to do basic tasks in, they just stop playing them

the average highsec talking rock seems to be unaware of the difference between tedious and hard

hard is something that requires thinking, puzzle-solving, skills, or whatever

tedious is something that's just mindless misery

we like it when things are hard, because we're smarter than everyone else. we dislike it when things are tedious, because that's just unfun and boring and you don't get anything out of it

various things keep saying "eve is supposed to be hard!!!!" while not grasping that hard is not tedious, and that just making 0.0 more tedious does not make eve harder it makes eve shittier


Can you clarify, is arguing with goons hard, or tedious?
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#722 - 2014-10-10 13:05:18 UTC
Tootenh'amon wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:

There's a reason people don't (usually) cheat in single player games. Having it harder can actually be a lot more fun. In eve for some reason the game has to slow down for the big, fat alliances, because their "quality of life" is more important than content generation and gameplay.

people don't cheat in single player games that are miserable to do basic tasks in, they just stop playing them

the average highsec talking rock seems to be unaware of the difference between tedious and hard

hard is something that requires thinking, puzzle-solving, skills, or whatever

tedious is something that's just mindless misery

we like it when things are hard, because we're smarter than everyone else. we dislike it when things are tedious, because that's just unfun and boring and you don't get anything out of it

various things keep saying "eve is supposed to be hard!!!!" while not grasping that hard is not tedious, and that just making 0.0 more tedious does not make eve harder it makes eve shittier


Can you clarify, is arguing with goons hard, or tedious?

hard: as we are the best at eve online and the finest posters in eve (or anywhere), you must be at the absolute top of your game to tangle with us for even a short time without being massively embarassed

we're basically the endboss of posting
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#723 - 2014-10-10 13:05:18 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
afkalt wrote:

You know what would help a LOT, actually, is if CCP actually alluded to the other things that they have planned for later.

It would probably help everyone as it is literally impossible to take part 1 of a 3 phase plan and hold it on overal merits if we do not know parts 2 and 3 even loosely. Specifics are not required - just something of the greater plan we can hold these changes up against.

At this point (to use a crapy TV analogy) we are basically arguing about whodunnit after watching part 1 of a 3 part TV murder mystery show!

the reason there's not any details is probably that steps 2 and 3 are currently in the "this is what we want the endpoint to be" and not "we have figured out how to get from a -> b". you don't want to talk about the goals when you're still figuring out if you can even get there - some goals are easy to say but insanely hard to implement and you might need to throw those out. for example: everyone always says that sov battles should require everyone to split their forces and contest multiple objectives, to combat lag. it's a good goal, but nobody has ever proposed a mechanic that implements it - all proposed mechanics the dominant strategy is still to combine your forces and crush each one of your enemy's dispersed forces in turn and nobody's been able to come up with a mechanic where that strategy isn't the best move


Absolutely, which is why I say it doesnt need to be specific. Even as some mentoned before - what do they expect from this? What will it allow in the future?

It's been done with changes before where people are like..."wtf this makes no sense" and the rationale is for something coming down the pipe.

Sure they don't always get it right, but the intentions are always noble AND it would allow some earlier feedback.

I suppose something similar to the sov shakeup preview thread asking for input - but giving context to the changes.

I mean, for all we know there might be something huge coming down later which means that actually, the lower jump ranges are just fine because you have no real NEED to go very far for transient, temporary ops.

Trouble is we don't know so people are arguing about things not being fit for purpose without any real clue as to what the purpose is going to be.
Tootenh'amon
#724 - 2014-10-10 13:08:22 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:

There's a reason people don't (usually) cheat in single player games. Having it harder can actually be a lot more fun. In eve for some reason the game has to slow down for the big, fat alliances, because their "quality of life" is more important than content generation and gameplay.

people don't cheat in single player games that are miserable to do basic tasks in, they just stop playing them

the average highsec talking rock seems to be unaware of the difference between tedious and hard

hard is something that requires thinking, puzzle-solving, skills, or whatever

tedious is something that's just mindless misery

we like it when things are hard, because we're smarter than everyone else. we dislike it when things are tedious, because that's just unfun and boring and you don't get anything out of it

various things keep saying "eve is supposed to be hard!!!!" while not grasping that hard is not tedious, and that just making 0.0 more tedious does not make eve harder it makes eve shittier


Can you clarify, is arguing with goons hard, or tedious?

hard: as we are the best at eve online and the finest posters in eve (or anywhere), you must be at the absolute top of your game to tangle with us for even a short time without being massively embarassed

we're basically the endboss of posting



See, I always thought goons were terrible posters. Thank you for that clarification.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#725 - 2014-10-10 13:09:44 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:
Can you clarify, is arguing with goons hard, or tedious?

hard: as we are the best at eve online and the finest posters in eve (or anywhere), you must be at the absolute top of your game to tangle with us for even a short time without being massively embarassed

we're basically the endboss of posting

What.

At best a midboss.


ISD are the endboss

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Eryn Velasquez
#726 - 2014-10-10 13:10:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
......
At the very least, the 'loosening' of the jump range nerfs means that NPC null doesn't get the super shaft that was aimed at it.


Would'nt be, if JFs just were'nt able to transport packaged ships and fuelblocks.

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#727 - 2014-10-10 13:11:57 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

No.. was makign people play as a group and PROTECT those freighters.

If you cannot make ahalf a dozen friends in an MMO the thing that needs a real buff are not JF, but your social skills

i have organized several freighter ops recently

i can assure you not one bit of fun was had by anyone in the game at all as part of those ops, either on our side or hostile


Well yeah, when you follow goons mantra of just "dock up and blue ball them until they get disinterested and don't come back" of course it's not fun for anyone. The real fun is when you send the freighter through the gate first to make sure you get everyone agressed and then jump the rest of the fleet and cyno in all of your archons...oh wait....sorry...too soon?Bear

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------

Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#728 - 2014-10-10 13:14:35 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
afkalt wrote:

You know what would help a LOT, actually, is if CCP actually alluded to the other things that they have planned for later.

It would probably help everyone as it is literally impossible to take part 1 of a 3 phase plan and hold it on overal merits if we do not know parts 2 and 3 even loosely. Specifics are not required - just something of the greater plan we can hold these changes up against.

At this point (to use a crapy TV analogy) we are basically arguing about whodunnit after watching part 1 of a 3 part TV murder mystery show!

the reason there's not any details is probably that steps 2 and 3 are currently in the "this is what we want the endpoint to be" and not "we have figured out how to get from a -> b". you don't want to talk about the goals when you're still figuring out if you can even get there - some goals are easy to say but insanely hard to implement and you might need to throw those out. for example: everyone always says that sov battles should require everyone to split their forces and contest multiple objectives, to combat lag. it's a good goal, but nobody has ever proposed a mechanic that implements it - all proposed mechanics the dominant strategy is still to combine your forces and crush each one of your enemy's dispersed forces in turn and nobody's been able to come up with a mechanic where that strategy isn't the best move


Absolutely, which is why I say it doesnt need to be specific. Even as some mentoned before - what do they expect from this? What will it allow in the future?

It's been done with changes before where people are like..."wtf this makes no sense" and the rationale is for something coming down the pipe.

Sure they don't always get it right, but the intentions are always noble AND it would allow some earlier feedback.

I suppose something similar to the sov shakeup preview thread asking for input - but giving context to the changes.

I mean, for all we know there might be something huge coming down later which means that actually, the lower jump ranges are just fine because you have no real NEED to go very far for transient, temporary ops.

Trouble is we don't know so people are arguing about things not being fit for purpose without any real clue as to what the purpose is going to be.



That is not CCPs fault but the players fault. There seems to be a misconception of what goals are. CCPs goals have to be to prevent too many from reaching THE end goal to keep the game interesting and dynamic somehow. Where as a player your goal is to reach that end goal and try to gather as much information upfront to prepare and succeed. Both concepts are completely opposite to each other which makes people start making assumptions, throwing bones and predicting futures out of it - not to mention all those fantastic crystal balls everyone seems to have. With every prediction CCP will adjust and change course to prevent too much of it actually happening and the circle starts a new round.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#729 - 2014-10-10 13:14:55 UTC
Although I personally could live with the drastic JF nerf of the first announcement, I think it makes sense to at least postpone this nerf to a later stage of the nullsec re-development.

The reasoning behind the nerf sounds legit to me. The EVE galaxy should be a vast space, and in fact it isn‘t, as you can move enormous amounts of stuff without much effort within a ridiculously short timespan.

If CCP has the vision of the EVE cluster full of remote places, which are hard to travel to, and hard to colonize, they have to go for the full Jump Freighter nerf at some point in the future. All other aspects are subordinated in this case.

I do not fear for the coalitions and large alliances though. I think even if Jump Freighters would be nerfed to 5 ly max, they would find a place in this galaxy. There might even be some amusing wars for systems and regions that are easily accessible after the patch, and that wouldn‘t be the worst that could happen to EVE.
OldWolf69
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#730 - 2014-10-10 13:17:07 UTC
The one here. The other here. Every third word is "nerf". Lol Hard work, especially extraordinary imagination and expanding skills, gentlemen. Nothing more than expected. But just as less as truly expected.LolLolLol
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#731 - 2014-10-10 13:18:45 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:

Well yeah, when you follow goons mantra of just "dock up and blue ball them until they get disinterested and don't come back" of course it's not fun for anyone. The real fun is when you send the freighter through the gate first to make sure you get everyone agressed and then jump the rest of the fleet and cyno in all of your archons...oh wait....sorry...too soon?Bear

Yes, let's use our paper thin freighters holding up to 35b apiece as bait.

Rational people don't let this happen.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#732 - 2014-10-10 13:21:29 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
That is not CCPs fault but the players fault. There seems to be a misconception of what goals are. CCPs goals have to be to prevent too many from reaching THE end goal to keep the game interesting and dynamic somehow. Where as a player your goal is to reach that end goal and try to gather as much information upfront to prepare and succeed.

The endgoal is of course to get a Titan, join PL and endlessly thirdparty in order to doomsday people

Now in lowsec

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#733 - 2014-10-10 13:22:06 UTC
Tootenh'amon wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:

There's a reason people don't (usually) cheat in single player games. Having it harder can actually be a lot more fun. In eve for some reason the game has to slow down for the big, fat alliances, because their "quality of life" is more important than content generation and gameplay.

people don't cheat in single player games that are miserable to do basic tasks in, they just stop playing them

the average highsec talking rock seems to be unaware of the difference between tedious and hard

hard is something that requires thinking, puzzle-solving, skills, or whatever

tedious is something that's just mindless misery

we like it when things are hard, because we're smarter than everyone else. we dislike it when things are tedious, because that's just unfun and boring and you don't get anything out of it

various things keep saying "eve is supposed to be hard!!!!" while not grasping that hard is not tedious, and that just making 0.0 more tedious does not make eve harder it makes eve shittier


Can you clarify, is arguing with goons hard, or tedious?

hard: as we are the best at eve online and the finest posters in eve (or anywhere), you must be at the absolute top of your game to tangle with us for even a short time without being massively embarassed

we're basically the endboss of posting



See, I always thought goons were terrible posters. Thank you for that clarification.


Well, you can fail so gloriously that it becomes a win so maybe same applies to posting?
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#734 - 2014-10-10 13:23:48 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
That is not CCPs fault but the players fault.

If you give a three-year-old a box of matches and he burns the house down, is it his fault?

The players have a sandbox to play in, it's hardly their fault if some areas are much shallower than others. For years we've been actively encouraged to dig as far as we can. It is absolutely CCP's job to look for these problems as far in advance as possible. At the end of the day, it's a bigger problem for them if someone digs too far and buries everyone else around them.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#735 - 2014-10-10 13:27:39 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
That is not CCPs fault but the players fault. There seems to be a misconception of what goals are. CCPs goals have to be to prevent too many from reaching THE end goal to keep the game interesting and dynamic somehow. Where as a player your goal is to reach that end goal and try to gather as much information upfront to prepare and succeed.

The endgoal is of course to get a Titan, join PL and endlessly thirdparty in order to doomsday people

Now in lowsec


You forgot dropping supers on solo cruisers and luring in Chribba as a broker to kill him.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#736 - 2014-10-10 13:35:12 UTC
Ilyana Nehla wrote:
So everyone can jump with T1 haulers across new eden via bridge and reship in a stashed Super? mkay.



90% fatigue bonus for T1 industrials means that you know who can now jump subcap blobs long distances again. With minimal penalty.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#737 - 2014-10-10 13:37:07 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Ilyana Nehla wrote:
So everyone can jump with T1 haulers across new eden via bridge and reship in a stashed Super? mkay.



90% fatigue bonus for T1 industrials means that you know who can now jump subcap blobs long distances again. With minimal penalty.

Nah. Interceptors are up to twice as fast as taking jump bridges in T1 industrials. YA0 to F2O is 30m by interceptor, and an hour by jump bridge.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#738 - 2014-10-10 13:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Arsine Mayhem
Retar Aveymone wrote:

hard: as we are the best at eve online and the finest posters in eve (or anywhere), you must be at the absolute top of your game to tangle with us for even a short time without being massively embarassed

we're basically the endboss of posting


Translation, you cry harder and longer than anyone in gaming history.

Carebears +1
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#739 - 2014-10-10 13:40:54 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
That is not CCPs fault but the players fault. There seems to be a misconception of what goals are. CCPs goals have to be to prevent too many from reaching THE end goal to keep the game interesting and dynamic somehow. Where as a player your goal is to reach that end goal and try to gather as much information upfront to prepare and succeed.

The endgoal is of course to get a Titan, join PL and endlessly thirdparty in order to doomsday people

Now in lowsec


Wait - you are saying you guys wouldnt take me even if i bring a Titan? That really limits my options then [sarcasm off]

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#740 - 2014-10-10 13:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Yroc Jannseen
Further thoughts on the Rorqual.

I think you need to look at it as a ship that can haul a fair amount and get in and out of difficult places. Aside from providing "boosts", practically speaking people are not using it as a mining support ship. The compression pos module also largely negates it's compression role.

I think you should seriously consider the idea of having the jump range be based on the Capital Industrial Skill.

Losing the drone bonus completely wouldn't be a deal breaker, but maybe consider making it a light drone bonus. The idea would be that the ship should be able to get away from a few frogs but not be able to fight of a whole fleet.

Also I had an idea that may or may not be doable. Would it be possible to tie the specialization of the 250k m3 ore hangar to a module of some type?

In other words add a low or high slot and create a module that chooses the specialization of the extra hangar, IE Ore, moon materials, ice products, minerals, fuel blocks. If the module is not fitted the hold is unusable. If you refit to a different specialization, with items in the hangar, you can't undock, or if it happens in space you can't jump out or dock (or maybe move at all).

This would give the rorqual a unique role in being able to move almost as much as a jump freighter, but mostly specialized to a specific category. This would be more suited to intraregional trade, as opposed to hauling everything you need from empire.