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CCP what did you do to Sleepers?

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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#81 - 2014-10-02 14:57:20 UTC
it is clear to me that Corbexx, despite actually doing his job unlike Chitsa, is just wasting his time. Corbexx, these guys don't work on facts, they work on drugs, and loads of them. Spychotropic drugs where keeping the players happy and providing them with an environment which rewards appropriate game play styles (not ISBoxing or AFKtars or monthly site humping) is the key, not inventing game play styles and models of economy which are nothing more than abstract theory, aimed at players which don't exist or pay for the game, in order to entice nonexistant non-people to play a game they are quite smart enough to research and realise;
- buy ten accounts and run Incursions with ISBoxer, your IRL time is multiplied 10x in effective ISK efficiency by magic, resulting in ten times the reward for your basement dwelling
- stay logged off for 27 of the days of the month so you don't lose everything and when you get a crap tonne of sites run them all in one night with hermetically sealed hole control
- risk getting a ban on one of your accounts for RMT so you can launder your nullsec ISK from the other ten accounts
- sperge on the nullsec nerf threadnaught

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#82 - 2014-10-02 15:24:07 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Quad cruise phoons you still need to MJD around, which required Guardian pilots to be on the ball.


I appreciate how you may run C4 sites, and the corresponding ISK/hr, but we are not comparable to what you guys do/did. There are other ways to apply essentially full-dps as soon as you land on grid and never move the entire site. A well-run site can bring 150 to 200 mil ISK/hr (per actual pilot) with zero preparation time. I won't get into the efficiency determination because more often than not it is run to include people, not maximize ISK. Again, IMHO, what you are doing to run your C4 appears to be inefficient based on our experience. I would be happy to speak with you in-game on some additional details to back up what I am saying.

IMHO Marauder escalations are a garbage idea. Why limit it to that class of BS? Terrible...

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#83 - 2014-10-02 16:08:08 UTC
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Yeah no. IMHO, C4's are not now, nor ever were "solo" content. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it also doesn't mean people need to shout the sky is falling when CCP appears to make a legitimate fix and in the end makes solo running harder. C4's as small-group PVE are quite viable, and when one considers the ISK risk versus reward, they are still competative with C5/C6 escalations, all things considered (setup time, ISK on grid, risk of losing a ship, risk of non-consensual PVP, etc.).
...
As a single fleet, the dps and tank on grid are a non-trivial force to reckon with and that alone provides defense from the casual gank, but certainly not the 80 man Gank-O-Rama fleet seen recently. Big smile
...

What has hurt C4 income potential more than anything else are the nanoribbon prices versus years past. I do remember when 7-8 mil was the going rate, ah the days. Big smile Changes in supply and demand have moved the majority of the income potential to the blue loot. As much as I hate the PVP aspect of more empty w-space, it should help the nanoribbon prices by dropping supply and in turn increasing sell prices.
...
Now, having said all that, if there needs to be a rebalance, it should take place in an obvious manner C1 < C2 < C3 < C4 income. Unfortunately, due to "our", meaning w-space folks, willingness to spend ISK on bling fits, the progression in difficulty is broken. Likely, even C3 were not intended for solo running, but that is easily done now.
...

EDIT: And to be clear, I am no fan of all this new connectivity, but it doesn't "break" C4 either...



pretty much +1
Though I would give c1-3s an extrapoint on the riskinessscale because of higher connectivity and traffic and you don´t need a 80 man Gank-O-Rama fleet to take a siterunner(-group) down.

A healthy progression for lowerclassincome could be c3 barely soloable in really blinged out stuff and c4s not. They should be perfect for running in 2-4 / 3-7 shipgroups. But esp with marauders and dronecarriers that is hardly possible to balance out.
Income in C1-3s should be raised a bit and the amount of holes in there +c4s should be toned down because 5+ holes all the time is just not the wormholespace we love anymore.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-10-02 23:53:25 UTC
This is a good change risk : reward will finally start being balanced in wormholes. No amount of howling can save you all from that.

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MooMooDachshundCow
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-10-03 00:23:08 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
This is a good change risk : reward will finally start being balanced in wormholes. No amount of howling can save you all from that.


I'm sure if you were to quantify it the anguish per person is considerably higher among your peers in null. I can't wait to see the next rounds of changes coming to kill the goons, err.... "shake up null".

As for the sleeper changes, it's perhaps slightly unfortunate for some people who were caught off guard, but I have little sympathy for those of us who solo, since I don't think you're really supposed to be able to do that in a WH (particularly not a C5 - Maybe in lower classes to some extent.)

In any case, this change is cool and was supposed to be there from the beginning, so we'll just adapt like we always do.

Don't cry, your suffering has only begun.

Yeah, well, it's just like my opinion, man.
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#86 - 2014-10-03 01:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: AssassinationsdoneWrong
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:
I don't think.


Removed all those extra words for you and left the content.

Who says C3/4's weren't ever meant to be run solo? Does that apply to DED 10's as well? Why should I or anyone have to adapt to this?

Here's what cuts to the core for me and really seriously is showing me the low sec door or even the leave eve door ....... stealth patching.

For Fozzie to come on here and insinuate that the patch to a broken Incursion mechanic had unexpected but actually what we meant to happen changes is frankly insulting. Somebody got into the sleeper code and changed it and didn't mention it. A Derp of communication? I could believe that this is after all CCP (Can't Communicate Properly) after all.

I never really wanted Nebulae, or hexagonal cloaking effects, nor a discovery scanner, jump distance change or anything really. I was quite happy taking whatever pew I could take and knowing I could replace the losses with a formula JUST LIKE EVERY SINGLE OTHER SUBSECTION OF EVE CAN!

At a time when your RL business is flushing itself down the toilet through a lot of your leadership Fozzie your actions are pretty ridiculous tbh. Soundwave would have come on and said "Yep, we derped again, fixing it maybe but sorry chaps" all you ever do is argue the point, try and counterpoint and make an equine's posterior out of yourself to boot.

Anyhoo I'm off to check out a beta 2 of a new old space game I heard was awesome and see if my game time is best spent there. I'm guessing I'm not alone at all.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#87 - 2014-10-03 09:52:18 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:
I don't think.


Removed all those extra words for you and left the content.

Who says C3/4's weren't ever meant to be run solo? Does that apply to DED 10's as well? Why should I or anyone have to adapt to this?

Here's what cuts to the core for me and really seriously is showing me the low sec door or even the leave eve door ....... stealth patching.

For Fozzie to come on here and insinuate that the patch to a broken Incursion mechanic had unexpected but actually what we meant to happen changes is frankly insulting. Somebody got into the sleeper code and changed it and didn't mention it. A Derp of communication? I could believe that this is after all CCP (Can't Communicate Properly) after all.

I never really wanted Nebulae, or hexagonal cloaking effects, nor a discovery scanner, jump distance change or anything really. I was quite happy taking whatever pew I could take and knowing I could replace the losses with a formula JUST LIKE EVERY SINGLE OTHER SUBSECTION OF EVE CAN!

At a time when your RL business is flushing itself down the toilet through a lot of your leadership Fozzie your actions are pretty ridiculous tbh. Soundwave would have come on and said "Yep, we derped again, fixing it maybe but sorry chaps" all you ever do is argue the point, try and counterpoint and make an equine's posterior out of yourself to boot.

Anyhoo I'm off to check out a beta 2 of a new old space game I heard was awesome and see if my game time is best spent there. I'm guessing I'm not alone at all.


Whilst the cosmetic changes are interesting, relearning how to tell the wormhole type, is something to do when scanning down the endless empty chains, and the cloak animation and colours are pretty, wormholes are a poorer place in every other way since Hyperion.

A shop for example, may have a loyal customer base, and can introduce new products, that offer something different at a higher price. Customers adapt to that and some will buy it, some will not, but you keep your original customer base.

If however you raise all your prices (increased risk in this analogy) and put in different colour bulbs in the shop and a couple of coloured posters of kittens to compensate, You find your customers go to the shop next door.

The question is why not? when you get cheaper products, more of them, and laid out so you can fill your trolly. Why on earth punish yourself struggling to find something on the empty shelves?

So I really ask myself, am I stupid for staying? CCP seem to think so, when they say they are just correcting a previous error.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#88 - 2014-10-03 10:05:18 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

So I really ask myself, am I stupid for staying? CCP seem to think so, when they say they are just correcting a previous error.


Yep, constantly doing something you don't enjoy is very stupid, and whining about it constantly makes you publicly stupid.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#89 - 2014-10-03 10:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

So I really ask myself, am I stupid for staying? CCP seem to think so, when they say they are just correcting a previous error.


Yep, constantly doing something you don't enjoy is very stupid, and whining about it constantly makes you publicly stupid.




I am constantly amazed how people can make quotes from the end of a post and somehow miss all that went before, but this is the eve forums, so there is very little that should suprise anyone.Roll

But I guess some would prefer to live in the new slums of eve and just suck it up, than actually try to make any attempt to improve them. Whatever floats your boat.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#90 - 2014-10-03 10:58:14 UTC
What you said before that wasn't relevant. Wormholes aren't any slummer than they used to be. You just don't seem to like them, so move out.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#91 - 2014-10-03 11:34:39 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
What you said before that wasn't relevant. Wormholes aren't any slummer than they used to be. You just don't seem to like them, so move out.



The argument of a rackmanian landlord.

Didn't think they existed any more, that thinking was eliminated from civilised society many years ago.

For those who do not google.
The most famous slumlord of all time.
You just quoted and paraphrased his arguments in court. Didn't end well.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2014-10-03 11:44:58 UTC
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
This is a good change risk : reward will finally start being balanced in wormholes. No amount of howling can save you all from that.


I'm sure if you were to quantify it the anguish per person is considerably higher among your peers in null. I can't wait to see the next rounds of changes coming to kill the goons, err.... "shake up null".

As for the sleeper changes, it's perhaps slightly unfortunate for some people who were caught off guard, but I have little sympathy for those of us who solo, since I don't think you're really supposed to be able to do that in a WH (particularly not a C5 - Maybe in lower classes to some extent.)

In any case, this change is cool and was supposed to be there from the beginning, so we'll just adapt like we always do.

Don't cry, your suffering has only begun.


Howl all you want you actually have to risk something now to get your reward, hah.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
MooMooDachshundCow
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-10-03 14:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: MooMooDachshundCow
La Nariz wrote:
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
This is a good change risk : reward will finally start being balanced in wormholes. No amount of howling can save you all from that.


I'm sure if you were to quantify it the anguish per person is considerably higher among your peers in null. I can't wait to see the next rounds of changes coming to kill the goons, err.... "shake up null".

As for the sleeper changes, it's perhaps slightly unfortunate for some people who were caught off guard, but I have little sympathy for those of us who solo, since I don't think you're really supposed to be able to do that in a WH (particularly not a C5 - Maybe in lower classes to some extent.)

In any case, this change is cool and was supposed to be there from the beginning, so we'll just adapt like we always do.

Don't cry, your suffering has only begun.


Howl all you want you actually have to risk something now to get your reward, hah.


Now if they could just do the same for moon mining (i.e. removal). Oh wait no, Null can't function anymore without free afk isk.

I'm not saying you CAN'T solo sites, or even that you shouldn't, but rather I'm fine with changes that encourage groups. That's all. I'm a heavily solo player myself, but I think we all know that the people make eve interesting, not the NPC's. I'm for things that encourage interaction both intra-corp and inter-corp.

I know these changes upset some people, but I do believe that they will be balanced by our Lords and Saviours of WH space Corbexx and Asanayami(sp?).

Remember: The best ship in Eve is FriendShip.

Yeah, well, it's just like my opinion, man.
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#94 - 2014-10-03 14:51:01 UTC
U know.. If I was the one that has spent so much of my spare time on sisi mapping out ISK/hr for C1-C4 wormholes, I would REALLY have appreciated a heads up about these kind of changes so I wouldn't be wasting my time......

I hope corbexx has more patience for this kind of nonsense.
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-10-03 15:34:55 UTC
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:


I'm not saying you CAN'T solo sites, or even that you shouldn't, but rather I'm fine with changes that encourage groups. That's all. I'm a heavily solo player myself, but I think we all know that the people make eve interesting, not the NPC's. I'm for things that encourage interaction both intra-corp and inter-corp.


It's much better to provide extra incentives for groups than to make soloing unviable though. It's not like there are groups of people lining up to get into j-space right now but just can't manage to because the solo marauders in C4s and C5s are keeping them out. If the soloers have to find something else to do, they'll just leave empty space behind, which means more interaction with NPCs and less with real people for everyone else. I don't know how many people solo C4s and C5s in marauders, but I can't imagine anyone wanting there to be fewer 2+bill ships spending time out in space without backup.

It will be interesting to see if the RR changes actually drop C4s below C3s in terms of isk/hour for solo pilots. The difference is already not that big and requires risking much more expensive ships.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#96 - 2014-10-03 15:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Alundil
Ya Huei wrote:
U know.. If I was the one that has spent so much of my spare time on sisi mapping out ISK/hr for C1-C4 wormholes, I would REALLY have appreciated a heads up about these kind of changes so I wouldn't be wasting my time......

I hope corbexx has more patience for this kind of nonsense.

Yeah - had this exact thought/conversation with RL friend and fellow pilot yesterday. All of the information that CCP "should" have with regard to drop rates, actual harvested rates, actual sold rates, etc etc could have easily be de-identified from corp/alliance and simply grouped by originating class (1-6). They should have been able to churn this out pretty easily given the amount of data mining they do within Tranquility. Yet they decided to refuse assistance to corbexx in gathering the very type of data they, CCP, are most able to provide. This cost corbexx hours (tens?) of his personal time with little actual gain/benefit without some commitment from CCP that they are looking into population growth/retention issues.

In another context it's increasingly apparent that the CSM is, once again, being relegated to an afterthought as it relates to proposed game design changes, especially sweeping changes. Seen here where the CSM was (purposely?) left out of the loop on the scope of the changes to be announced. And what is even more injurious to the CSM and its stated purpose is the following:

https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie/status/515243517455908864
http://imgur.com/RqV85sG

http://imgur.com/khDX6f1

Poor form CCP. Poor form indeed.

I'm right behind you
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#97 - 2014-10-03 18:50:12 UTC
NoobMan wrote:
With 4 webs and 5 faction painters an Awakened Sentinel (cruiser) can not be hit by dreads anymore?

Did you reduce the sig?

Also the remote rep effects are cool looking but damn they rep a lot more.

Did I miss this somewhere in the patch notes?

one of the things probably hitting the dreads is the lack of tracking they took away from dread guns, i know a lot of dread pilots both wh and pvp that were complaining about the tracking they loss and that unless other cap ships were standing still they were having problems hitting them

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#98 - 2014-10-03 21:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Alundil wrote:
Ya Huei wrote:
U know.. If I was the one that has spent so much of my spare time on sisi mapping out ISK/hr for C1-C4 wormholes, I would REALLY have appreciated a heads up about these kind of changes so I wouldn't be wasting my time......

I hope corbexx has more patience for this kind of nonsense.

Yeah - had this exact thought/conversation with RL friend and fellow pilot yesterday. All of the information that CCP "should" have with regard to drop rates, actual harvested rates, actual sold rates, etc etc could have easily be de-identified from corp/alliance and simply grouped by originating class (1-6). They should have been able to churn this out pretty easily given the amount of data mining they do within Tranquility. Yet they decided to refuse assistance to corbexx in gathering the very type of data they, CCP, are most able to provide. This cost corbexx hours (tens?) of his personal time with little actual gain/benefit without some commitment from CCP that they are looking into population growth/retention issues.

In another context it's increasingly apparent that the CSM is, once again, being relegated to an afterthought as it relates to proposed game design changes, especially sweeping changes. Seen here where the CSM was (purposely?) left out of the loop on the scope of the changes to be announced. And what is even more injurious to the CSM and its stated purpose is the following:

https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie/status/515243517455908864
http://imgur.com/RqV85sG

http://imgur.com/khDX6f1

Poor form CCP. Poor form indeed.


The CSM had already made their position clear by publicly supporting the null leaders' statement. Not very smart (I think) And probably forced CCP's hand into publishing the dev blog early.

And whoever is crowing about goons dying shouldn't be so daft. This will strengthen goons. Maybe not the CFC but why would you want to maintain a coalition after these and subsequent changes? They will already have a battle plan and I very much doubt it is overly complicated.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Pro TIps
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-10-03 21:44:28 UTC
I did some C4 sites today. The sleepers' RR makes them take longer to die, but they still die. I don't solo them and I feel sorry for the lonely people who do.

I notice the RRs seem to have a fairly reasonable range limit. Also, just to experiment with them, I jammed a preserver battleship with 5x EC-300 drones and it did not resume repairing its ally, even though it did start shooting at us again. I might load up a few larger ECM drones and assign one or two per preserver to see what happens. However, seriously, it does not make the sites take much longer if you have .. friends .. :)
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#100 - 2014-10-04 14:26:54 UTC
I farm solo in a C4 frequently and have no problem with the RR. In fact, if you field a ship that is able to apply reliable ~1000 DPS (Marauder, Carrier), the RR is hardly noticable.

Sites take around 1-2 Minutes longer now, which is absolutely fine when looking at the insane amount of ISK/h doable in a C4.

The changes are absolutely fine and whoever has problems with the RR in a C4 is probably not ready for this class of WHs when it comes to fieldable equipment. Besides that, no one is forced to do the sites alone. Tests with 2 or 3 ships have shown, that the RR is not even worth mentioning.

The values like "1000 DPS+ RR" mentioned earlier in this thread are far far off, at worst the Sleeper RR in a C4 neutralizes like 150-200 DPS and thats it.

I tested it multiple times and in a good ship it is still absolutely no problem flying these sites solo and making huge amounts of ISK with that. Just don't try it in a 450 DPS Tengu...