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CCP what did you do to Sleepers?

First post First post First post
Author
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC
#101 - 2014-10-04 14:31:07 UTC
Pro TIps wrote:
I did some C4 sites today. The sleepers' RR makes them take longer to die, but they still die. I don't solo them and I feel sorry for the lonely people who do.

I notice the RRs seem to have a fairly reasonable range limit. Also, just to experiment with them, I jammed a preserver battleship with 5x EC-300 drones and it did not resume repairing its ally, even though it did start shooting at us again. I might load up a few larger ECM drones and assign one or two per preserver to see what happens. However, seriously, it does not make the sites take much longer if you have .. friends .. :)


I vaguely recall that the post-jam behaviour of Sleepers had some interesting quirks, including "nearly always aggroing on the jammer, even if that splits the wave's DPS".

If there's no RR on field, you could also juggle jams to take advantage of sleeper BS's slow lock-times. Admittedly, the Scorp's doing maybe a hundred DPS, but when well flown, it mitigated enough enemy DPS that you could trade a logi out for something more violent.

(We also used ours as a cap-exchanger for a Carrier, so we only needed one Logi and it came with fighters... no escalations in C4, though)
Mixery82
Friends Of Harassment
#102 - 2014-10-04 18:40:58 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
I farm solo in a C4 frequently and have no problem with the RR. In fact, if you field a ship that is able to apply reliable ~1000 DPS (Marauder, Carrier), the RR is hardly noticable.

Sites take around 1-2 Minutes longer now, which is absolutely fine when looking at the insane amount of ISK/h doable in a C4.

The changes are absolutely fine and whoever has problems with the RR in a C4 is probably not ready for this class of WHs when it comes to fieldable equipment. Besides that, no one is forced to do the sites alone. Tests with 2 or 3 ships have shown, that the RR is not even worth mentioning.

The values like "1000 DPS+ RR" mentioned earlier in this thread are far far off, at worst the Sleeper RR in a C4 neutralizes like 150-200 DPS and thats it.

I tested it multiple times and in a good ship it is still absolutely no problem flying these sites solo and making huge amounts of ISK with that. Just don't try it in a 450 DPS Tengu...


Absolutely correct the RR in C4 is not worth to talk about it!
Aiyshimin
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#103 - 2014-10-05 06:11:36 UTC
It depends on the site.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2014-10-05 10:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
Keith Planck wrote:
Before everyone goes crazy and talks about the death of low class wormholes, I'm mapping out the real damage:

C1 Space(Totally Unaffected)
No RR



C2 Space(Totally Unaffected)
No RR


C3 Spacesmall nerfs to solar cell and Oruze, the 2 rarest kinds of sites, you can no longer rely on unbonused light drones to slowly eat away at frigates in the solar cell, and the site time for the oruze is getting a SLIGHT increase, but with only 130dps repping power even solo ships will be able to melt the low HP low resistance cruisers
Fortification
- 1 RR Cruiser in final wave, low hp and resistances, shouldn't even effect solo ships

Outpost
No RR

Solar Cell
- 2 RR frigates 2nd wave, low hp and resistances, smartbombs and unbonused drones won't be effected, may be difficult for ships that don't have good dps vs frigs to kill them
- 1 RR battleship final wave, low hp and resistances, easily killed first, shouldn't effect solo ships


Oruze
- 1 RR cruiser in first wave, low hp and resistances, easily killed first, shouldn't effect solo ships
- 2 RR Cruisers in final wave, low hp and resistances, 130 dps repping power (against the 60% resistances of the other RR cruiser), site time will be a little slower


C4 SpaceHuge nerf to soloability and site time of the 2 most common sites
Barracks
The final wave is an RR nightmare, there is as much as 965-1126dps in reps. All the ships spawn hundreds of K off and will try to stay at range. This is also a pretty common site.

Command Post
Stupid 1000+dps in reps in the final wave, another huge nerf

Terminus
Couple of RR frigs and cruisers, will slow down solo ships

Info Sanctum
RR cruisers and frigs in the final wave, not as bad as the barracks and command post but it will still slow solo ships down


C5 Spacewith the new buff to flux coils and refitting, core garrisons (most common site) remain for marauders that bring multiple smartbombs, other then that there's a huge nerf to groups as strongholds (2nd most common site) now have a nightmarish last wave
Garrison
6 RR frigs in 2nd wave, solo marauders will have trouble smartbombing the frigs. double or triple smartbomb reccomended

Stronghold
Final wave is a total RR nightmare 2000+dps in reps, soloing will be impossible and small groups will have a lot of trouble

Oruze
Last wave has 4 RR frigs and 3 RR cruisers, ships without good alpha wont be able to kill the frigs

Quarantine
3 RR cruisers in the final wave 250ish dps tank, but no one runs these sites outside of capital escalations or large groups anyways


C6 Space (Totally Unaffected)
No one can really solo these sites, and anything outside of caps are so horrifically inefficient its a null point


and here i went through all this trouble to get exact numbers on the front page and no one is even reading them :/
Winthorp
#105 - 2014-10-05 10:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Keith Planck wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
Before everyone goes crazy and talks about the death of low class wormholes, I'm mapping out the real damage:

C1 Space(Totally Unaffected)
No RR



C2 Space(Totally Unaffected)
No RR


C3 Spacesmall nerfs to solar cell and Oruze, the 2 rarest kinds of sites, you can no longer rely on unbonused light drones to slowly eat away at frigates in the solar cell, and the site time for the oruze is getting a SLIGHT increase, but with only 130dps repping power even solo ships will be able to melt the low HP low resistance cruisers
Fortification
- 1 RR Cruiser in final wave, low hp and resistances, shouldn't even effect solo ships

Outpost
No RR

Solar Cell
- 2 RR frigates 2nd wave, low hp and resistances, smartbombs and unbonused drones won't be effected, may be difficult for ships that don't have good dps vs frigs to kill them
- 1 RR battleship final wave, low hp and resistances, easily killed first, shouldn't effect solo ships


Oruze
- 1 RR cruiser in first wave, low hp and resistances, easily killed first, shouldn't effect solo ships
- 2 RR Cruisers in final wave, low hp and resistances, 130 dps repping power (against the 60% resistances of the other RR cruiser), site time will be a little slower


C4 SpaceHuge nerf to soloability and site time of the 2 most common sites
Barracks
The final wave is an RR nightmare, there is as much as 965-1126dps in reps. All the ships spawn hundreds of K off and will try to stay at range. This is also a pretty common site.

Command Post
Stupid 1000+dps in reps in the final wave, another huge nerf

Terminus
Couple of RR frigs and cruisers, will slow down solo ships

Info Sanctum
RR cruisers and frigs in the final wave, not as bad as the barracks and command post but it will still slow solo ships down


C5 Spacewith the new buff to flux coils and refitting, core garrisons (most common site) remain for marauders that bring multiple smartbombs, other then that there's a huge nerf to groups as strongholds (2nd most common site) now have a nightmarish last wave
Garrison
6 RR frigs in 2nd wave, solo marauders will have trouble smartbombing the frigs. double or triple smartbomb reccomended

Stronghold
Final wave is a total RR nightmare 2000+dps in reps, soloing will be impossible and small groups will have a lot of trouble

Oruze
Last wave has 4 RR frigs and 3 RR cruisers, ships without good alpha wont be able to kill the frigs

Quarantine
3 RR cruisers in the final wave 250ish dps tank, but no one runs these sites outside of capital escalations or large groups anyways


C6 Space (Totally Unaffected)
No one can really solo these sites, and anything outside of caps are so horrifically inefficient its a null point



I agree with this mostly apart from the C3 premise that they can still all be solo run. While yes they will still be soloable i still feel they shouldn't be any harder or slower then they were before this change. A lot of new blood to WH space gets there first real taste for the good ISK that can be made in a C3 WH and anything that hinders that is an issue.

I still want to support the random people that you catch running C3 sites in **** fit meta T1 BS's.
Syzygium
Nagamoto Inc.
Come in and freak out
#106 - 2014-10-05 10:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Syzygium
We did read the numbers. Unfortunately they are *completely incorrect*, at least for C4 sites.

I repeat: The Sleeper RR is *by far* no problem if you have an adequate damage output to run the sites fast anyway.

Numbers of "1000+ DPS RR" are nowhere near the reality. The sleepers DO NOT remote repair all the time, they only repair in small bursts which neutralize 1-2 of your own shots and thats it. Even the Frontier Barracks Spawn with 3 Preserver BS is just a piece of cake, it takes 1-2 minutes longer now, nothing more. The sleepers never come close to "outtank" you or something like that.

We tested sites with Sentrycarriers (1200-1600 DPS depending on drones) and Marauders (1000 DPS Paladins) and it was absolutely no problem to run C4 sites very quick.

edit:
Just to make clear what we talk about:
- A Sentrycarrier still clears a Frontier Barracks in 10-11 Minutes (was 8-9 before), which means if you count in warp times you can still do *very reliable* 4-5 sites per hour including looting and salvaging afterwards. Average ISK per Site is around 80-100 Million, so we talk about income of 240-400 Million ISK/hour. What exactly is there to complain about?
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#107 - 2014-10-05 10:49:50 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
We did read the numbers. Unfortunately they are *completely incorrect*, at least for C4 sites.

I repeat: The Sleeper RR is *by far* no problem if you have an adequate damage output to run the sites fast anyway.

Numbers of "1000+ DPS RR" are nowhere near the reality. The sleepers DO NOT remote repair all the time, they only repair in small bursts which neutralize 1-2 of your own shots and thats it. Even the Frontier Barracks Spawn with 3 Preserver BS is just a piece of cake, it takes 1-2 minutes longer now, nothing more. The sleepers never come close to "outtank" you or something like that.

We tested sites with Sentrycarriers (1200-1600 DPS depending on drones) and Marauders (1000 DPS Paladins) and it was absolutely no problem to run C4 sites very quick.


You talk well but you don't read and comprehend at all. It's not a question of whether you can do it in a bloody carrier (Send route bookmarks please) and every other ship you have listed you have done so in the plural so it's not about whether a gang can do them either.
The main points are i) What was once tough but soloable is now not and ii) As usual it wasn't even mentioned in patch notes and as usual was discovered by players more qualified to test content than the designers. Probably resulted in a few unwarranted ship losses to NPC's in the process.


The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2014-10-05 10:54:28 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
It depends on the site.


indeed depends on many things.

but i've gotten tired of reading these threads where people claim extremely high income, but don't even explain how they run the sites (ship type / fittings?). sure i get why they don't, and i'm not after their super sekret shalom fits, but it is useless to the debate.

a few other things to bear in mind (pun intended):

- as above poster, diff sites, diff issues, even diff wh effects all this plays a part
- no site respawn like null so isk ph is actually isk per static roll + a bunch of other variables
- a lot of these figures work if you are solo in some bling boat (or carrier seemingly, even though that limits you to home farming o.0) but if you happen to want to do group sites then it is bad... so group pve is basically exclusive to c5-c6, which imo is bad for wspace

yes RR is a minor issue, but it is part of a much bigger debate about how wspace PVE supports corps to exist / grow in the harshest environment in this game.

I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees we could do with more population across the board, so for the love of BOB, stop waving your PVE epeen around, and actually use these threads constructively to suggest changes so there are more peeps to shoot in wspace.
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-10-05 10:57:48 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
We did read the numbers. Unfortunately they are *completely incorrect*, at least for C4 sites.

I repeat: The Sleeper RR is *by far* no problem if you have an adequate damage output to run the sites fast anyway.

Numbers of "1000+ DPS RR" are nowhere near the reality. The sleepers DO NOT remote repair all the time, they only repair in small bursts which neutralize 1-2 of your own shots and thats it. Even the Frontier Barracks Spawn with 3 Preserver BS is just a piece of cake, it takes 1-2 minutes longer now, nothing more. The sleepers never come close to "outtank" you or something like that.

We tested sites with Sentrycarriers (1200-1600 DPS depending on drones) and Marauders (1000 DPS Paladins) and it was absolutely no problem to run C4 sites very quick.

edit:
Just to make clear what we talk about:
- A Sentrycarrier still clears a Frontier Barracks in 10-11 Minutes (was 8-9 before), which means if you count in warp times you can still do *very reliable* 4-5 sites per hour including looting and salvaging afterwards. Average ISK per Site is around 80-100 Million, so we talk about income of 240-400 Million ISK/hour. What exactly is there to complain about?



so basically you're saying:

"hey guys its fine if you solo farm your home static in carriers, which we all know forever spawns anoms"

Roll
Aiyshimin
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#110 - 2014-10-05 11:04:49 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Syzygium wrote:
We did read the numbers. Unfortunately they are *completely incorrect*, at least for C4 sites.

I repeat: The Sleeper RR is *by far* no problem if you have an adequate damage output to run the sites fast anyway.

Numbers of "1000+ DPS RR" are nowhere near the reality. The sleepers DO NOT remote repair all the time, they only repair in small bursts which neutralize 1-2 of your own shots and thats it. Even the Frontier Barracks Spawn with 3 Preserver BS is just a piece of cake, it takes 1-2 minutes longer now, nothing more. The sleepers never come close to "outtank" you or something like that.

We tested sites with Sentrycarriers (1200-1600 DPS depending on drones) and Marauders (1000 DPS Paladins) and it was absolutely no problem to run C4 sites very quick.


You talk well but you don't read and comprehend at all. It's not a question of whether you can do it in a bloody carrier (Send route bookmarks please) and every other ship you have listed you have done so in the plural so it's not about whether a gang can do them either.
The main points are i) What was once tough but soloable is now not and ii) As usual it wasn't even mentioned in patch notes and as usual was discovered by players more qualified to test content than the designers. Probably resulted in a few unwarranted ship losses to NPC's in the process.




Sites are still soloable in a marauder, but profitablity has decreased enough to make me consider if it's still worth it.

Syzygium
Nagamoto Inc.
Come in and freak out
#111 - 2014-10-05 12:02:28 UTC
Jez Amatin wrote:



so basically you're saying:

"hey guys its fine if you solo farm your home static in carriers, which we all know forever spawns anoms"

Roll

No, what I am saying is: "The Sleepers do NOT RR like a 1000 DPS". Nothing more, nothing less.

In your home WH you can still do sites in a carrier quite easily.

Outside of your home WH, a Marauder is still able to do the sites solo if you want and have a proper fit. You make less money now, true, but the money still is enough compared to what you can make in comparable environments (0.0 Anomalies). Even if you can run only 2 sites per hour, thats still 160-200 Million ISK.

And heaven forbids to do these sites non-solo (aka dual/tripleboxing or just run them with a few friends), when the RR becomes simply non-existant any more.

So basically all that "ohh ohhh CCP what did you do to sleepers!!!11111" is just nonsense. The Sleepers are just fine. The players are too greedy and believe just because they enjoyed a broken mechanic that made it easy for them, they now magically have the "right" to keep making that much money forever.

Yeah, the sites are a bit harder. Fine. Nothing to complain about. They are still doable and they still generate lots of lots lof lots of money. The only thing that could CCP have done better is: fixing it 2 years ago when they introduced WHs so people don't complain now when everything works as intended.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#112 - 2014-10-05 13:36:04 UTC
Syzygium wrote:

No, what I am saying is: "The Sleepers do NOT RR like a 1000 DPS". Nothing more, nothing less.

In your home WH you can still do sites in a carrier quite easily.

Outside of your home WH, a Marauder is still able to do the sites solo if you want and have a proper fit. You make less money now, true, but the money still is enough compared to what you can make in comparable environments (0.0 Anomalies). Even if you can run only 2 sites per hour, thats still 160-200 Million ISK.

And heaven forbids to do these sites non-solo (aka dual/tripleboxing or just run them with a few friends), when the RR becomes simply non-existant any more.

So basically all that "ohh ohhh CCP what did you do to sleepers!!!11111" is just nonsense. The Sleepers are just fine. The players are too greedy and believe just because they enjoyed a broken mechanic that made it easy for them, they now magically have the "right" to keep making that much money forever.

Yeah, the sites are a bit harder. Fine. Nothing to complain about. They are still doable and they still generate lots of lots lof lots of money. The only thing that could CCP have done better is: fixing it 2 years ago when they introduced WHs so people don't complain now when everything works as intended.


(Assuming the numbers haven't changed since last time RR was working)

There are some waves that can rep for 1000 dps or more - sure its not every wave or every site - and depends on what you shoot at as well as to how much of the RR your up against - aside from 1-2 waves the average on C4 waves that have RR is somewhere between 200 and 300dps averaged over time and for C5s somewhere around 700dps.

Yes they do cycle through patterns so don't just rep flat out constantly 100% effective but you can get unlucky and have them repping effectively against you for quite some time sometimes - other times you'll blap straight past their reps without issue.
Syzygium
Nagamoto Inc.
Come in and freak out
#113 - 2014-10-05 14:20:44 UTC
just tested:

Frontier Command Post (considered the hardest site)

in a:

Vargur (considered the worst Marauder) when it comes to damage application (hello falloff...).


Result: 18 Minutes from first to last shot. Never in trouble.

And it was the first try, the run was far from perfect. Paladin, Kronos or Golem would have been even faster.

So that is very reliable 3 sites/hour incl. looting. Nobody tell me thats a bad income.

Vargur Fit (before someone says "impossible!!!!!").

Quote:
[Vargur, C4 Solo]
Damage Control II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner
Large Micro Jump Drive
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
True Sansha Heavy Capacitor Booster
Tracking Computer II

800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
[Empty High slot]
Bastion Module I
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II

Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I


Warrior II x5

Optimal Range Script x1
Hail L x2088
Republic Fleet Fusion L x788
Barrage L x2716
Cap Booster 800 x12
Nanite Repair Paste x263
Winthorp
#114 - 2014-10-05 14:29:37 UTC
Syzygium wrote:


Vargur (considered the worst Marauder) when it comes to damage application (hello falloff...).


Never in trouble.




Yet you tried it in the strongest of all Maraurders...
Agatir Solenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2014-10-05 14:31:48 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
So that is very reliable 3 sites/hour incl. looting. Nobody tell me thats a bad income.


That assumes you have more than three sites in your wormhole.

This idea that you can determine ISK/hr when you do the math for one site is ridiculous. You have to time ALL tasks taken to conduct each site.

You must include:
1. Scan time (yes I understand some sites don't require this)
2. Hole rolling time
3. Salvage time
4. Travel time
etc.

I'd like to see someone spend 24hrs doing wormhole sites and compare it to 24 hours of incursion running and 24 hours of mission running (with/without salvage).

Give me those numbers... and then you can make such statements.

Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2014-10-05 14:34:43 UTC
thanks for testing and sharing, can u clarify if there are any wh effects?
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#117 - 2014-10-05 14:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: AssassinationsdoneWrong
Here's the point.
Solo sites ARE soloable in a Marauder, Fact. If you sit in a Paladin punching around 1,140 ish DPS (that's conflag so you have to wait for ranges to be right) then in theory we who have IQ's slightly above cucumbers and don't rat our home C4's in a carrier/s (still waiting for the chain bookmarks thanks in advance) can solo sites quite happily all be it taking much longer.

So much for the theory the reality is the added time leaves the Marauder pilot left in-site longer which means he's at much greater risk especially with new added dual statics, added connections etc. etc. and things like this happen (really? X-type for a C4 prepatch? Shocked )

What you seem unable to fathom is there really are people out there who don't want to or can't get in a farming circle jerk because of TZ differences and needing to be able to do it with a small or even alt group.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Aiyshimin
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#118 - 2014-10-05 14:42:42 UTC
1. You scan your static anyway, that's not directly PVE-related activity and won't be included in any calculations.
2. Almost all C4s have enough anoms to run
3. Salvage time is included in 200mil/hr average (at least mine)
4. And so is travel time.

Taking the loot out to the market is not included, but shopping is also part of normal routines in wormhole life.

Yes there is risk, and the ships are expensive, but 200mil/hr is balanced and good income. 160mil/hr is on the edge to me, personally, and it drops uncomfortably close to hisec incursions. ymmv, for most people running a few sites for 160mil/hr would be just fine, especially if they can achieve that in cheaper ships by teamwork.


Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2014-10-05 15:53:48 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
and things like this happen (really? X-type for a C4 prepatch? Shocked )


personally i don't fly marauders, so cant really comment on the fit. but yea that was a nice welp, and we had a good chuckle over it :3.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#120 - 2014-10-05 16:08:11 UTC
Agatir Solenth wrote:


You must include:
1. Scan time (yes I understand some sites don't require this)
2. Hole rolling time
3. Salvage time
4. Travel time
etc.

I'd like to see someone spend 24hrs doing wormhole sites and compare it to 24 hours of incursion running and 24 hours of mission running (with/without salvage).

Give me those numbers... and then you can make such statements.



Ermm I´m fairly certain this entire thing here is just about sleepersites. People complained the RR-fix (and it is just a fix, it already worked a few years ago) made it impossible, yet people show that they can still even solo the c4 sites and make more isk/h than with any other non-escalationsite.
If wh income is balanced compared to k-space income is an entirely different discussion and needs soo many things to factor in. I always chuckle when F1drones call moonminerals allianceincome, funny how something like that doesn´t really exist elsewhere. Yet you never see those billions show up in isk/h stats while people say PI should be factored in for c1s...