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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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uziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2221 - 2014-10-02 02:22:21 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:
Yuri Fedorov wrote:
The fatigue thing is kinda interesting, but 5LY range is too short. If the current ranges are kept (or minor tweaks) this will be much better.


5 LY perfect and a good starting point. I think It should be 0 but working back from 5 is doable


No blops then. Puts you out of business.

From the formless void's gaping maw, there springs an entity.  Not an entity such as any you can conceive of, nor I; an entity more primordial than the elements themselves. In its wake there will follow a storm, as the appetite of nothing expands over the world. The Prophecy is true. Grayscale has come.
Protocon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2222 - 2014-10-02 02:23:46 UTC
uziel99 wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
Yuri Fedorov wrote:
The fatigue thing is kinda interesting, but 5LY range is too short. If the current ranges are kept (or minor tweaks) this will be much better.


5 LY perfect and a good starting point. I think It should be 0 but working back from 5 is doable


No blops then. Puts you out of business.



should read my reply about adaptation...
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2223 - 2014-10-02 02:24:14 UTC
So you guys wanted big battles to get you head lines so you listened to the big boys and made changes that helped them which helped you get news on huge super cap fights destroying huge dollar amounts of real life money if you convert the value of all the ships lost to real money with the current market value of PLEX.

So now you are pissed that null sec has stagnated which is not only the logical outcome of the changes you've made but predicted by many people on the forums here. So now that you got what you wanted instead of addressing the root issue that you created you want to start trying to force certain types of game play rather than incentivize.

With every change I wonder if the people making the calls at CCP have clue or if they even play this game. Instead of focusing on specific game play mechanics like this you need to first change the basic attitude and focus of you development teams. The key needs to be around usage.

isk needs to be made from space getting used not space being owned. passive income needs to go. tools need to be put in place so corps and alliances can earn isk based on how much their system is used. This creates incentives for them to open the space up and make it safe for neutrals. With neutrals comes action and shake ups.

Another thing that I don't think you are considering is that PL hotdropping lone small T1 ships with super capital fleets when they are bored only happens because if things get hot fast they can get support quickly. Restricting the ability to bring in back up quickly in some cases will reduce the useage of capitals not increase. Well I guess like you guys said we'll see how things shake out. I just think you guys are barking up all the wrong trees and in recent years I seem to be proven correct more often than not on this kind of stuff.

The other consideration that you guys need to take into account is that you just had an expansion that increased the need to jump stuff in and out of null for the industry of this game to function and now you are going to jack around with jumping mechanics? It just has bad idea written all over it.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Sygma
Appetite 4 Destruction
#2224 - 2014-10-02 02:24:37 UTC
Travis Uchonela wrote:
CCP has acknowledged that jump freighters need a lighter treatment given the cool down bonus, but it's the range nerf that is the problem. As it stands now there will be no way to move a jump freighter into spots like NPC delve, curse or stain without holding sov in nearby regions. This change doesn't hurt the big blocs, but what are small guys supposed to do if they want to move or deploy and harass sov holders?

Say that a small corp wants to deploy for a few months to NPC Delve to harass the CFC. In the current system you could jump from high sec, through aridia, and into NPC Delve going station to station. Once Jump Freighters have their range nerfed, how do you make a move like that?

The jump from Aridia to NPC delve would be over 10 LY, making it impossible with range nerfed to 5 LY. From Khanid? Over 7. Not possible. You will physically not be able to jump a JF into NPC delve unless you use Goon sov as mids. Is a small corp supposed to set up a pos network to do that in CFC space? Or take the JF through gates from Aridia, through CFC space, to NPC delve? If you are bringing multiple doctrines in do you unload everything in Sakht and take an entire day moving convoys one ship at a time? How likely does any of this sound?

This is trivial for big blocs and sov holders since they have mids and can run convoys for freighters if they had to. If a small group wants to move it will have to leave all their ships behind, hope there is a local market in the usually sparse NPC space, or stop pvping to try a mine enough to build them. If the intent wasn't to hit small groups much harder than power blocs then I hope you'll consider leaving JF range alone. It's already a hassle to move them for small groups.



EXACTLY
Kah'Roor
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2225 - 2014-10-02 02:25:18 UTC
uziel99 wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
Yuri Fedorov wrote:
The fatigue thing is kinda interesting, but 5LY range is too short. If the current ranges are kept (or minor tweaks) this will be much better.


5 LY perfect and a good starting point. I think It should be 0 but working back from 5 is doable


No blops then. Puts you out of business.



Finally, I can stop losing recons to tech 1 cruiser.....winning.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2226 - 2014-10-02 02:25:24 UTC
With the range nurff are there any thoughts of lowering the SP for jump cal 5 as now it seem s like a prerec if you are going to fly any capital.




also whats to stop me from just leapfrogging since most of my cynos can already fly caps as well?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Arrendis
TK Corp
#2227 - 2014-10-02 02:25:42 UTC
I would like to say, as someone who flies subcaps and capitals, and as a member of the Evil Empire...

CCP, thank you.

With this change, you shift the balance of power even further toward defense. Jump timers in friendly space? No problem, just gate to the nearest station and dock up. Need to project power across multiple regions? Don't jump the ship, jumpclone the character to the nearest cache.

I do truly appreciate everyone else taking the time to exult in how hard this will hurt the CFC. The single most masochistically grind-happy group in the history of EVE, willing to burn down an entire region with torpedo bombers, surely won't be willing to take gates anywhere, right?

I mean, we already do, after all. JBs are convenient, but Elo loves to shoot them, so vOv.

And hey, whose space is right next door to the Forge? Oh, right, ours.

MOA, have fun resupplying 5ZXX w/a 5ly limit on JFs.

TRI, PASTA? Oh, we're going to enjoy starving you all.

Thank you, CCP. Your most sadistic band of masochists may not all realize it yet, but you've given us a wonderful present for Halloween: we'll get to be monsters all winter long.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#2228 - 2014-10-02 02:25:42 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
Yogsoloth wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:


I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend hours of my life to simply move subcapitals around. I refuse to spend half a day simply to move minerals and my production goods to and from Jita. This is a game, not a second job.





This is the point exactly. It'll be soo unpleasant to try and hold soo much space that large entities will cease to do so. Hence opening the door to new and smaller entities that will actually occupy and live in the space they hold.


On the contrary, I'm talking about personal logistics. Alliance and coalition logistics aren't handled by a single person in a large entity such as CFC, teams of people work on that, and their sizes can be accommodated to amplify any arbitrary ~bright idea~ Grayscale's brain trust can spit out. A large entity has thousands of man hours and ~jump hours~ to be able to throw out at this ridiculous change.

On the other hand, I'm a single guy. I live in null. I'm having to subscribe six separate accounts already to be able to live out from where I live, and have a reach to universal trade hubs and to make a living.

It is going to take me at least half a work day of waiting out jump fatigue with this genius system to be able to do what I could do in an hour currently, with or without a Jump Freighter. And here's the best thing about it: I'm actually very lucky in the sense that my alliance holds some of the best regions, if not the best regions in null to live out of with this jump fatigue non-sense taken into consideration. CFC will have it sweet and easy if the changes get implemented! Other null dwellers, regardless of whether they are living in sov null or NPC null are getting hit worse. Whereas I'll have to spend half a day to make a trip to the universal trade hub, Jita, they will have to spend DAYS if they only have a single pilot, and one and a half day if they personally own multiple JF pilots!

Do not get me wrong, I'm not defining myself as a casual player. Quite the contrary, even as a non-casual, serious gamer, spending at least half a work day to be able to complete the non-trivial task of transporting basic goods that I need to sustain my presence in null is ridiculous.

It is obvious that implementing such a poorly thought, arbitrary and weak idea on the game will cause subscription fatigue on players of EVE Online, a MMO game which has bled out subscribers severely in the last few years. This will, I'm afraid, in turn impose existential fatigue on CCP, a for profit company that does not have any other game that generates revenue or any other game that is expected to generate revenue, currently in development.

On a sidenote, I'm looking forward to follow Grayscale's future in the gaming industry with such an impeccable credential under his belt if this takes place. I believe I have met with two-months old newbies in EVE that understood what is taking place in null more than Grayscale ever could.

To summarise -- "wahhh, I don't like these changes as I can't insta transport all my goods to Jita anymore, *hurl unfounded insults at CCP Dev".

Think outside the box for one second, Jita is a player made creation (abomination). We are free to use any other system as a market hub, and unbelievably, you can also speak to other null/low secers and make some trade deals if you want supply close to your manufacturing system.
Dreiden Kisada
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2229 - 2014-10-02 02:26:43 UTC
Originally an XKCD strip, I made a few minor changes to make it topical to eve online.

http://i.imgur.com/6utxT9l.jpg
Kalissis
#2230 - 2014-10-02 02:26:46 UTC
uziel99 wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
Yuri Fedorov wrote:
The fatigue thing is kinda interesting, but 5LY range is too short. If the current ranges are kept (or minor tweaks) this will be much better.


5 LY perfect and a good starting point. I think It should be 0 but working back from 5 is doable


No blops then. Puts you out of business.


They don't change BLOPS range for now, but currently I feel blops are way underused and USELESS. So when even blops lose it --> Nothing of worth was lost that day!
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2231 - 2014-10-02 02:29:58 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Eddiie wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend hours of my life to simply move subcapitals around. I refuse to spend half a day simply to move minerals and my production goods to and from Jita. This is a game, not a second job.




this


Yes, cause Jita is the end-all be-all solo trading hub in which New Eden revolves around and yada yada yada...

...and here I recall ancient legends about how Jita once upon a time was less populated than a redneck farmland. Imagine that. It must mean that something happened which made Jita is what it is today. I DO so wonder what it could have been. Surely it must have been an event which is impossible to reproduce today.



And tell me, 30.000 (already dropping) online players at EUTZ peak time on a weekend is supposed to create more trade hubs that every good can be bought and sold in?

There is a reason Jita is the ultimate, definitive trade hub. It is because there aren't enough people (population) that would necessitate another vibrant and lucrative trade hub. If EVE had 100.000 concurrent logins on a weekend prime time, you would see people spreading around. But EVE does not, and probably will never have that. New Eden is very much underpopulated as there aren't that many subscribers and characters to populate it to the level which you are idealizing it to be.

Moreover, pretty much any populated highsec system would be inaccessible from deep null anyway, Jita or not. Getting goods to and from anywhere in empire is going to be inconvenient, if not impossible. This will also hilariously wreck many other things, such as T2 production.

For instance, tell me why I should be spending more than sixhours every day just to be able to get T2 materials from empire trade hubs, which are not locally produced in where I live?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2232 - 2014-10-02 02:30:16 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
.


They don't change BLOPS range for now, but currently I feel blops are way underused and USELESS. So when even blops lose it --> Nothing of worth was lost that day![/quote]

Just because you don't know how to use them doesn't make them useless

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#2233 - 2014-10-02 02:30:37 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:

You are kidding yourselves if you think you will implement something like this and people wont exit the ship at every jump just to get further with a different guy.
I personally have 5 carrier toons you put this ill thought short sighted crap in and watch me do exactly this.


CCP has said they're okay with this, because it means on a long range deployment, you're still using 5 alts to get 1 capital ship there a little faster, instead of 5 caps there in the same amount of time like we have today.

The defenders within 5LY can bring a cap per character without any problems.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2234 - 2014-10-02 02:30:58 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
All you people crying about timers realise it's nowhere near as bad as you think. Over long distances it's actually more sensible to wait out your first fatigue timer fully rather than rapid jumping.
Or if you set it up nicely, jump once.
Take gates while the timer ticks down.
Jump again
Rinse & repeat mixing gates & jumps to create the fastest overall travel while not maxing out your timer ever.


Problem is this is just going to make the game a drag to play for people who are entirely unconnected to the reasons behind this mechanic being proposed, ultimately its an over reaching bandaid that is likely going to do more negative things for the game than it will positive.
Raza Locuta
Guardians Incorporated
Cynosural Field Theory.
#2235 - 2014-10-02 02:31:21 UTC
No,... Just No
veolias
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#2236 - 2014-10-02 02:31:21 UTC
Not to bothered about slowing down battle fleets movements / ranges, but JF / RORQ should definitely be able to fit increased jump range mods in their low slots for logistics so they can trade of space for range.
Leto Aramaus
Frog Team Four
Of Essence
#2237 - 2014-10-02 02:32:54 UTC
After reading a lot of the opinions (and tears), I'm starting to form my own take...

I have to say, reading the dev blog, the whole ridiculous jump fatigue math just immediately sounded and felt stupid, and over-complicated. The name of it alone, jump fatigue, just instantly sounds dumb and against any sensible/scientific lore. The TWO different timers makes it already annoying and confusing.

CCP, I hate the sound of your current plans.

However I DO like the reasons and ideas behind the changes.

Lots of players are suggesting things like....

1. Why not just have a flat cyno jump cooldown? (maybe different timers for different capital classes?)
2. Why are you nerfing jump range SOOOO much? Like... how about 10LY?...8LY? Come on...
3. Why would you do this to JF pilots as well? Is there a plague of JF fleet hotdropping that is ruining small gang null sec? Seriously, make jump freighters much less nerfed than combat capitals.
4. How about letting Back Ops still have much longer ranges and less cooldown?

Do you guys just roll with the first proposal from any Dev? This jump fatigue crap sounds like some newbie game dev whipped it out of his ass, and you all just said "YES that's the system we'll use! IMPLEMENT NEXT MONTH!"

God I can't get over how annoying and over complicated this system sounds. Jump fatigue. So dumb.

I say do all of these changes but not so hard.

Nerf jump range... but don't nerf jump range THIS hard.

Implement some kind of jump cooldowns, but DON'T use this stupid, exponential "fatigue" system, with insane multi-hour cooldowns.

Also please for the love of god make it ship-based, i.e. the ship's jump drive needs to spool up/cool down/whatever.... our pod pilot brains being "fatigued" from jumping just sounds so dumb, lore-wise.

The UI update we deserve
zentroty
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2238 - 2014-10-02 02:34:16 UTC
subscription fatigue is all I see in this.
For those who have placed time and money into skills and ships now you will be unable to do what was advertised.
Just the number of post should show how off the mark CCP is at this moment in time with game development.
All I see is a rushed plan that is going to kill EVE and drive the player base away.
Hawk Starlord
Eden's Knights of Malta
#2239 - 2014-10-02 02:34:29 UTC
Trying to remember why I pay for "skilling up" time....seems like the game has drastic changes every 2-3 months. Guess I'll be gifting my stuff to corpies. These changes seem like a hoax... Either way, I'll save my $15 a month or go play something else that I can actually enjoy playing. I have been paying for skills for a year (i haven't been able to play the last few months at all) and then find out it was all a waste of money. I'm kind of glad they are doing this now so I don't pay them anymore money. Spanks CCP.
Kalissis
#2240 - 2014-10-02 02:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalissis
Quote:


Quote:
They don't change BLOPS range for now, but currently I feel blops are way underused and USELESS. So when even blops lose it --> Nothing of worth was lost that day!


Just because you don't know how to use them doesn't make them useless


Go ahead and make it a normal discussion again and explain to everyone your wise eve ways. Only way you can use them is by bridging ships that cost only 1/20 and dont risk a ****** ship beeing on the field. Unless you are dropping ratting carriers, well go ahead but do some real man pvp and tell me how to use this dead beat boat out there.