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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive
Quantum Inquisition
#1981 - 2014-09-25 21:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Pritovsky Pootis
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Is it too late to get any of the needed changes into oceanos? Or Will we have to wait until the following release at the earliest? Sad


So optimistic? After all that's happened? I'm certainly not!

EDIT: Page 100! [again] yay... wonder if CCP will even give it a quick glance now.
Dreekus
Pls Be Gentle
#1982 - 2014-09-25 22:10:11 UTC
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Is it too late to get any of the needed changes into oceanos? Or Will we have to wait until the following release at the earliest? Sad


So optimistic? After all that's happened? I'm certainly not!

EDIT: Page 100! [again] yay... wonder if CCP will even give it a quick glance now.



I kinda understand that they would like to gather more data. I am being optimistic and/or naive but I hope that is why there is no response - they are gathering data and till they do not gather enough there is not much they could say that would calm public Blink
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#1983 - 2014-09-25 22:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rei Moon
I'd like to express how much I love Hyperion.
Now I've got plenty of time with my wife, she always kept on whining and crying she'd lost his husband to a ******* game.
Nowadays all the bills are paid in time, no more people calling that the bill for the car is late, or my children getting fever because father isn't playing with them anymore.
The wallet thanks too- no more buying plex for whelping silly pve bs' s just because
the heart Thanks too - much less smoking in front of screen because wspace is so cool
Ty Fozzie
<3 I'M FINALLY getting a life

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#1984 - 2014-09-25 22:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Duranin
Dreekus wrote:
I kinda understand that they would like to gather more data. I am being optimistic and/or naive but I hope that is why there is no response

They won't release any of that data.
If there really would have been no severe hit to w-space population and activity then there would have already been a dev blog about how well the new wormhole features worked out.
Just look at the recent dev blog about the burner missions for comparison.

They certainly won't post a dev blog filled with graphs that basically show how the wormhole update failed.
TBH we don't need any graphs. We need this sh*t fixed.
Brutus Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1985 - 2014-09-25 23:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Brutus Crendraven
Hi CCP,

Post the changes to wormhole space things have gotten significanlty worse.

1. Roaming fleets seen: Significanlty less.
2. Bashing POSs increased (lack of targets)
3. WH distance changes, those pesky scouts now jump with out risk.
4. Melted Nano Ribbons slight rise in price. Wander if there is less farming?
5. Chains mapped yep, loads and loads. EMPTY. We're resorting to low and null space YUCK!
6. Occupied Wormholes declining (We've watched people leave). Loads of deactivated large towers, based on revisiting our vast collection of tower bookmarks.
6. Frigate wormholes were great we went out and bought new frigates. Used them once!
7. Rage rolls, reduced due to lack of corp interest. 3 Orcas and a Scorpion slow boating back to a wh is just a tedium not required. Also no additional risk persay. Given we spawned the WH and it requires pilots to be in the new wh active. They have to scan and form up to engage our rolling fleet.
.....

Overall tweaking some figures to throw ships further away from the Wormhole hasn't really set the world on fire! Please rollback the changes and listen to your customer base. Maybe introduce some genuine functionality rather than dithering around existing mechanics please!

Wormholes may not be as glamourous as large scale TIDI fights in Null but we are a group of active intent pilots trying to enjoy the sandbox of eve, throw in some more toys not nerf the existing ones.

CCP be brave and share the figures and lets get wormhole space back to happy space :)


Thanks

A low class pilot in a low class wormhole.
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive
Quantum Inquisition
#1986 - 2014-09-26 00:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Pritovsky Pootis
Jessica Duranin wrote:
Dreekus wrote:
I kinda understand that they would like to gather more data. I am being optimistic and/or naive but I hope that is why there is no response

They won't release any of that data.
If there really would have been no severe hit to w-space population and activity then there would have already been a dev blog about how well the new wormhole features worked out.
Just look at the recent dev blog about the burner missions for comparison.

They certainly won't post a dev blog filled with graphs that basically show how the wormhole update failed.
TBH we don't need any graphs. We need this sh*t fixed.


This, basically. Its obvious the figures don't fit with what CCP would like to think and they are too embarrassed to show it. Or, like I said earlier, it might be that although the net amount of players and activity is down in WH space, CCP considers this to be an acceptable number and will pretend everything is still fine, despite having many, many players and both CSM's saying it isn't. For me and my corp, this change has done nothing but brought frustration and lack of enjoyment to what little gametime we have. As a result, many of us simply don't log in anymore. Tell me CCP, how does this bring more content and enjoyment to a patch who's main philosophy was to bring a breath of fresh air to WH space. Honestly if you needed inspiration for some good ideas, you should have checked out the WH space little things thread. I'm sure you could make a patch just out of the first page or two and everyone would be rejoicing!

Yet again, still waiting for a response other than "Don't worry guys, we're watching!". I for one would actually welcome a post saying "You guys are over-reacting here is a graph to prove it.", because that would sort it out once and for all. Maybe they were right and it did make a positive difference (although I doubt it based on my own experience and of those mentioned in this thead!). The fact that such a post hasn't happened yet however leads me to suspect it won't do anytime soon (if ever).
Serith Ellecon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1987 - 2014-09-26 02:34:33 UTC
I have near zero confidence in CCP reverting the one bad change in Hyperion. They were told this was a bad idea in advance, and now WH corps and players are leaving for K-space (and some of them leave the game) as a result. Activity levels are plummeting and CCP insist this was a success...

Inappropriate signature added.  CCP Notarealdev.
Gunner GzR
Air
The Initiative.
#1988 - 2014-09-26 02:36:06 UTC
So we were talking tonight and had this thought..Since we are scanning the endless chains of mty w space. If ccp wants to Drive conflict in w space what about reducing the number of whs

By doing this you increase the chances of hitting active corps and drive more conflict since there is less whs

Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#1989 - 2014-09-26 03:11:01 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Are you stating that 2 end of life bombers chose to attack you orca because of the changes?? Explain to me why the wouldn't have engaged you pre hyperion. I'm skeptical of your ability to draw straight lines.


LOL and trolling continues... So sad... As per epicurus ataraxia's comment, feedback is constructive, whining is not... 90% of the posts on these are useless feedback and just push away from teh game rather than encourage them to actually give the new content a go... Also your statement about the Orca situation is based on an emotional responce to the changes not fact...

I dont believe those bombers would have engaged the Orca pre-Hyperion or at very best would have jumped through to chase me when I double tapped and then immediately disengaged and jumped back through. The only reason we got an engagement was due to the fact that they thought they could burn through my hit points before I had a chance to get back to jump range of the wormhole... So infact it is YOU that is mistaken and/or quite mis-informed on the mechanics.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1990 - 2014-09-26 06:48:56 UTC
you are trolling! Stop it please.
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#1991 - 2014-09-26 08:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rei Moon
Andiedeath wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Are you stating that 2 end of life bombers chose to attack you orca because of the changes?? Explain to me why the wouldn't have engaged you pre hyperion. I'm skeptical of your ability to draw straight lines.


LOL and trolling continues... So sad... As per epicurus ataraxia's comment, feedback is constructive, whining is not... 90% of the posts on these are useless feedback and just push away from teh game rather than encourage them to actually give the new content a go... Also your statement about the Orca situation is based on an emotional responce to the changes not fact...

I dont believe those bombers would have engaged the Orca pre-Hyperion or at very best would have jumped through to chase me when I double tapped and then immediately disengaged and jumped back through. The only reason we got an engagement was due to the fact that they thought they could burn through my hit points before I had a chance to get back to jump range of the wormhole... So infact it is YOU that is mistaken and/or quite mis-informed on the mechanics.


Hmm in the last 13 days, your corp got 14 kills in wspace (includind a MTU).... and lots of kills in kspace, including Tama, nullsec and such. As i understand, you and many other guys in your alliance are very good pvpers. I just don't understand how Hyperion was so good for YOU if you get so few kills in wspace? I mean, you're actually doing what everybody else is, going to kspace to get content. I enjoy your enthusiasm too much, the positive attitude goes a long way up in life, but
let's be honest :S

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1992 - 2014-09-26 10:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffi Flaffi
no, no, no. Don't draw the killboard card. Tried that already. He will claim to have alts doing this pvp stuff. I saw his killboard as well and had the same thoughts. If this change was doing so much for him and his ally, why isn't killboard reflecting this.

All the Story he tells us can not be proven and the killboard links he provided earlier are not valid.
Isn't that strange, is it? Roll
Obviously he is just trolling, so we better we just ignore him. Is there an "ignore button" here in the Forum? Have to check that now ... oh yeah. It is. klick on his Avatar and you can find "hide posts". This will help. :)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1993 - 2014-09-26 10:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Some of the changes, had the potential to be good, as part of a general wormhole expansion that corrected the disparity between low class wormhole systems and in their relationship to KS income sources, some new content would have also been appreciated together with fixing known bugs in the sites.

The little things thread, written by it's residents, CCP's target market here, would have been a good place to start.

However what we got was a bulldozer driven through wormhole space pushing everything off it's foundations, with little or no positive development or improvement.

In a nutshell, it was all stick and no carrot, and the mass spawn change was a hammer used to drive that wooden stake through wormhole spaces heart........

The one unquestionably good change, signatures remaining over downtime, is not enough to bandage this gaping wound......

So by now CCP, you are seeing the answer to the question, "what could possibly go wrong?"

Our question is, "have the lessons been learned, and how fast can you put things right?" As wormhole space has only so much lifeblood left to lose.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1994 - 2014-09-26 12:39:41 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Are you stating that 2 end of life bombers chose to attack you orca because of the changes?? Explain to me why the wouldn't have engaged you pre hyperion. I'm skeptical of your ability to draw straight lines.


LOL and trolling continues... So sad... As per epicurus ataraxia's comment, feedback is constructive, whining is not... 90% of the posts on these are useless feedback and just push away from teh game rather than encourage them to actually give the new content a go... Also your statement about the Orca situation is based on an emotional responce to the changes not fact...

I dont believe those bombers would have engaged the Orca pre-Hyperion or at very best would have jumped through to chase me when I double tapped and then immediately disengaged and jumped back through. The only reason we got an engagement was due to the fact that they thought they could burn through my hit points before I had a chance to get back to jump range of the wormhole... So infact it is YOU that is mistaken and/or quite mis-informed on the mechanics.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

Let me bottom line this for you.

An orca jumps through a wh [stop me if you've already heard this]. 2 bombers get a free poke to try and kill it. [sun glasses on - blinding flash of the obvious] Pre or post hyperion, if 2 bombers get a free poke at a rolling orca - they take it.

The crux of your argument is that they felt they could kill it in their wh before it got back, so they engaged. Then you go on to state that the followed you through and gave it a go there.

For your theory (well delusional story is probably a more proper description) to be correct....
1. The end of life bomber pilots would need to be risk averse pansies - which they were not (hint they followed you in)
2. The end of life bomber pilots would stop at their wh and not follow you back -(see hint above)

I pity your lack of understanding of the world you live in on one hand, but on the other envy the sense of awe and wonderment you perpetually enjoy.

I'm not whining - I'm telling you that your understanding of "The great orca/bomber incident of 2014" is flat out wrong. You missed. You don't get it. Wrongo! Bzzzzzzzt! and all that. If you think I'm whining.... I can't help you.

TL/DR the crappy mass/range mechanic had NOTHING to do w/ the 2 bombers having a go at your orca.
Dalron
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#1995 - 2014-09-28 06:55:40 UTC
I think everyone has made the right points again and again on this thread and it's reached the point where we deserve to see some stats.

It's not like CCP never show stats to back up how their changes went (they just did it with their burner missions) so CCP Fozzie how about it ?

Clear unedited facts,stats and charts so we can see what's going on? If the change was bad admit it, if you want to prove that it was right but it's going to take more time then tell us. At the moment we are in the dark. And we feel ignored. And our complaints feel justified because WH space feels emptier.
Mindo Junde
Somnium Vita
#1996 - 2014-09-28 08:51:56 UTC
Dalron wrote:
I think everyone has made the right points again and again on this thread and it's reached the point where we deserve to see some stats.

It's not like CCP never show stats to back up how their changes went (they just did it with their burner missions) so CCP Fozzie how about it ?

Clear unedited facts,stats and charts so we can see what's going on? If the change was bad admit it, if you want to prove that it was right but it's going to take more time then tell us. At the moment we are in the dark. And we feel ignored. And our complaints feel justified because WH space feels emptier.


We will only see stats if they back up CCP's position, Fozzie like all the other developers is trying to avoid discussing his cockups. Given the complete lack of interest by the devs since their last post we can assume that the predictions of doom and gloom have been vindicated. FFS they've moved to Module Tiericide now that ship Tiericide is now (and I Quote) 'Nearly complete'
Mindo Junde
Somnium Vita
#1997 - 2014-09-28 08:58:44 UTC
Niskin wrote:
To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: "A developer has got to know its customer's limitations."

You cannot control the choices players make when you do not control the entire list of options they have to choose from. Every player has 2 options that they start with before CCP adds any to the list. They are "leave this space" and "quit the game." The former may be CCP's intention from time to time, for valid reasons. The latter should never be intended.

Players make choices based on their own limitations, such as: available playtime, available resources, available assistance from others and yes, of course, risk of loss. Of those limitations the only one CCP can affect directly is risk. The others can be indirectly affected but not in an immediate fashion.

So playtime is out of their control. If there were a graph of playtime mapped against fun, peak playtime would meet up with peak fun. If something is less fun, or to use a term repeated in this thread --tedious--, that reduces fun and reduces playtime. As some have mentioned, increased reward along with increased risk can balance out fun.

Available resources are out of their control, they aren't going to just dump isk in people's wallets. They can adjust the rate at which players can earn isk but the effect is not immediate.

Available assistance means friends online and is only directly affected by available playtime which is tied to fun.

That leaves risk, the one thing CCP can directly affect, so they grabbed it and wrenched it up to 11. When I say that I mean the combination of Mass-Based-Jump, Extra Statics, Extra Randoms, and Frig Holes. These features could all have merit in isolation, but together they kicked the risk up high enough that people are ignoring CCP's recommendation of "accept more risk" and choosing the always available "nah, I'll do something else." Anybody who had a proper understanding of the choices would have seen that coming.

So what happens now? Well the choice list for CCP is much shorter: Revert the changes, Keep the changes and hope new people move in, or Pick and choose and hope it's the right formula for fun. I don't know what the right formula would be, but it has to take into account that players first question on risk is "how much of the risk can I control for?" The question of "can I afford to lose this?" comes after you decide how much risk you are actually facing.

Any developer that fails to understand the limitations of what they actually have control over will force people into decisions that developer won't like in the end. You CANNOT force people to play a certain way, but you can force them to choose between playing that way or quitting.

One last thing to discuss. Why is CCP trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem that created the symptom? Rolling holes is not the problem, it's a player-made solution to the actual problem of having nothing to do until something changes. The choices were always: wait, logoff, or roll the hole. If you want to fix the actual problem, find a way for people that want fights to find them easier, and people who want isolation to find it easier. Then play with the variables on how long isolation can last, or how often it can happen, and what kind of fights can be found. Boom, content.

Longer/wider chains won't get fights by default, for reasons already covered in this thread. The depth at which players will commit to a fight or continue searching is not under CCP's control. It is yet another limitation that is controlled by the players themselves.


Nice post deserves a +1

I'd add somewhat less eloquently that CCP has a long history of borking areas of the game, treatment of WH's only shows they actually do think they are game developer gods, rather that reasoned thinking individuals who want a thriving game ecosystem. Elite:Dangerous is now up to 550 systems and due for release in a couple of months, its shaping up to be EVE 2 in a very very real way. It lacks a lot of features currently, but it will get them.

TL;DR CCP ****** up (again), Other options now available to play
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive
Quantum Inquisition
#1998 - 2014-09-29 01:22:48 UTC
Niskin wrote:
To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: "A developer has got to know its customer's limitations."

You cannot control the choices players make when you do not control the entire list of options they have to choose from. Every player has 2 options that they start with before CCP adds any to the list. They are "leave this space" and "quit the game." The former may be CCP's intention from time to time, for valid reasons. The latter should never be intended.

Players make choices based on their own limitations, such as: available playtime, available resources, available assistance from others and yes, of course, risk of loss. Of those limitations the only one CCP can affect directly is risk. The others can be indirectly affected but not in an immediate fashion.

So playtime is out of their control. If there were a graph of playtime mapped against fun, peak playtime would meet up with peak fun. If something is less fun, or to use a term repeated in this thread --tedious--, that reduces fun and reduces playtime. As some have mentioned, increased reward along with increased risk can balance out fun.

Available resources are out of their control, they aren't going to just dump isk in people's wallets. They can adjust the rate at which players can earn isk but the effect is not immediate.

Available assistance means friends online and is only directly affected by available playtime which is tied to fun.

That leaves risk, the one thing CCP can directly affect, so they grabbed it and wrenched it up to 11. When I say that I mean the combination of Mass-Based-Jump, Extra Statics, Extra Randoms, and Frig Holes. These features could all have merit in isolation, but together they kicked the risk up high enough that people are ignoring CCP's recommendation of "accept more risk" and choosing the always available "nah, I'll do something else." Anybody who had a proper understanding of the choices would have seen that coming.

So what happens now? Well the choice list for CCP is much shorter: Revert the changes, Keep the changes and hope new people move in, or Pick and choose and hope it's the right formula for fun. I don't know what the right formula would be, but it has to take into account that players first question on risk is "how much of the risk can I control for?" The question of "can I afford to lose this?" comes after you decide how much risk you are actually facing.

Any developer that fails to understand the limitations of what they actually have control over will force people into decisions that developer won't like in the end. You CANNOT force people to play a certain way, but you can force them to choose between playing that way or quitting.

One last thing to discuss. Why is CCP trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem that created the symptom? Rolling holes is not the problem, it's a player-made solution to the actual problem of having nothing to do until something changes. The choices were always: wait, logoff, or roll the hole. If you want to fix the actual problem, find a way for people that want fights to find them easier, and people who want isolation to find it easier. Then play with the variables on how long isolation can last, or how often it can happen, and what kind of fights can be found. Boom, content.

Longer/wider chains won't get fights by default, for reasons already covered in this thread. The depth at which players will commit to a fight or continue searching is not under CCP's control. It is yet another limitation that is controlled by the players themselves.


A massive +1 to this. Explains the whole situation far better than I ever could.
Scrubnbubble
If we die it's lag
#1999 - 2014-09-29 04:21:46 UTC
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:
Niskin wrote:
To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: "A developer has got to know its customer's limitations."

You cannot control the choices players make when you do not control the entire list of options they have to choose from. Every player has 2 options that they start with before CCP adds any to the list. They are "leave this space" and "quit the game." The former may be CCP's intention from time to time, for valid reasons. The latter should never be intended.

Players make choices based on their own limitations, such as: available playtime, available resources, available assistance from others and yes, of course, risk of loss. Of those limitations the only one CCP can affect directly is risk. The others can be indirectly affected but not in an immediate fashion.

So playtime is out of their control. If there were a graph of playtime mapped against fun, peak playtime would meet up with peak fun. If something is less fun, or to use a term repeated in this thread --tedious--, that reduces fun and reduces playtime. As some have mentioned, increased reward along with increased risk can balance out fun.

Available resources are out of their control, they aren't going to just dump isk in people's wallets. They can adjust the rate at which players can earn isk but the effect is not immediate.

Available assistance means friends online and is only directly affected by available playtime which is tied to fun.

That leaves risk, the one thing CCP can directly affect, so they grabbed it and wrenched it up to 11. When I say that I mean the combination of Mass-Based-Jump, Extra Statics, Extra Randoms, and Frig Holes. These features could all have merit in isolation, but together they kicked the risk up high enough that people are ignoring CCP's recommendation of "accept more risk" and choosing the always available "nah, I'll do something else." Anybody who had a proper understanding of the choices would have seen that coming.

So what happens now? Well the choice list for CCP is much shorter: Revert the changes, Keep the changes and hope new people move in, or Pick and choose and hope it's the right formula for fun. I don't know what the right formula would be, but it has to take into account that players first question on risk is "how much of the risk can I control for?" The question of "can I afford to lose this?" comes after you decide how much risk you are actually facing.

Any developer that fails to understand the limitations of what they actually have control over will force people into decisions that developer won't like in the end. You CANNOT force people to play a certain way, but you can force them to choose between playing that way or quitting.

One last thing to discuss. Why is CCP trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem that created the symptom? Rolling holes is not the problem, it's a player-made solution to the actual problem of having nothing to do until something changes. The choices were always: wait, logoff, or roll the hole. If you want to fix the actual problem, find a way for people that want fights to find them easier, and people who want isolation to find it easier. Then play with the variables on how long isolation can last, or how often it can happen, and what kind of fights can be found. Boom, content.

Longer/wider chains won't get fights by default, for reasons already covered in this thread. The depth at which players will commit to a fight or continue searching is not under CCP's control. It is yet another limitation that is controlled by the players themselves.


A massive +1 to this. Explains the whole situation far better than I ever could.


This on a massive scale^
Mithandra
B.O.P Supplication For Glorious
Dracarys.
#2000 - 2014-09-29 12:26:22 UTC
Rolling the hole takes my corporation probably 30 seconds longer than it did post patch, and we are STILL rolling. We've not seen any more risk now than before.

We adapted.

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community