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Prototype: Dojos

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1001 - 2014-09-28 16:34:24 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.


Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations.


Because the inevitable spamming of Jita with these freaking things is totally going to be a big player draw, right?

Or is it one of those "If what I want isn't catered to, the game will die!" things? I think you'll find if you look, that your niche doesn't mean much.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1002 - 2014-09-28 16:38:35 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.


Because we haven't then we shouldn't is a very weak argument. Step back and look at that one before I reducto ad absurdum all over it.

m


Using that logic EVE should add pandas.
Rammix
TheMurk
#1003 - 2014-09-28 16:43:06 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:

The dojos just need to be designed in a way so that 3rd parties can interfere. This means no reinforcement timers and no ridiculous amounts of EHP. With a small gang, it should take them several dozen minutes to break through an undefended dojo, making the participants vulnerable. With a large gang, it should take them only a few minutes to do so.

This means a small group can shut down a dojo eventually, but can't directly interfere in a fight that is currently going on. A large gang can break through in time to shut down a match that just started.

This also means the dojo owners can defend their structure, leading to lots of emergent gameplay as defenders and tournament participants scramble to keep the dojo alive so the tournament can keep going.

Interesting point.
Then it should not be a magical space inside a structure or pocket in space.
Instead, something looking like a forcefield would be a sane solution. Easily scannable, or even visible in overview like cynos.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1004 - 2014-09-28 16:43:41 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:


In the same argument, using a jabber ping to amass a force to log on and get instantly Titan bridged on to a target is essentially the same: getting pew pew easy and fast. And from the receiving players end, there isn't anything they can do about it. Remember that when you say you can't affect dojo PVP bc I can't affect "giant blob just bridged on me" PVP. As for the more risk out of the dojo argument: all ships are still getting popped that aren't a training session. Just like the billions that are spent for the AT, billions would be spent by teams competing on tournaments.

I never said the dojo arena is better or should be the only one. In fact I said it would help the overall EVE environment. The sandbox is exactly what it should be, a place where all players have a way to do something. Not everyone likes getting bridged on or blobbed to death but it's still allowed in game and apparently not everyone likes the idea of a fair place to have coordinated fights but it's also being considered being brought into the game. Both will have a place to survive in game and won't step on each other's toes. As I mentioned in the post before, there are still plenty of ways to affect someone else's quick and easy fix PVP


except someone put in the work to know whether they should be pinging or not. and like wise you can affect a blob just bridging on you.

the risk of facing what is in front of you within known rules is far less than the risk of facing what is in front of you plus anyone who wants to come along with absolutely no restrictions as to how many of whatever they want to bring.

the idea that dojo's are as risky as the greater sandbox as a whole is completely false.

again, sandbox means everyone can do what they want. so how is this idea that prevents ppl from hunting you in these 'instances' sandbox? it may not step on my toes much, but if i want to kill you for some vendetta and youre in this space i cant. at that moment the sandbox is no longer a sandbox. even if it lasts only 5 minutes.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1005 - 2014-09-28 16:45:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.


Because we haven't then we shouldn't is a very weak argument. Step back and look at that one before I reducto ad absurdum all over it.

m


Using that logic EVE should add pandas.


...do you even read what you write?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1006 - 2014-09-28 16:50:16 UTC
Personally, I live in 0.0 and don't expect I'll ever use one of these, except maybe for a corp tournament. I have no interest in honorable 1v1 combat. I do have an interest in player retention. My 7.5 years in Eve has not taught me that making Eve even more hardcore and require even more time and dedication will improve it at all.

There will be a lot of these in Jita is not a valid argument against them. Or, if you like, put a space rental cost on them and add another ISK sink. You want one in Jita? Fine, that will be 1 million ISK/minute to anchor it in that space. Out in that high sec island on the other side of the universe it's 1 ISK/minute.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rammix
TheMurk
#1007 - 2014-09-28 16:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
FT Diomedes wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.


Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations.

Lol? If you don't want to risk - don't log in, or use a combination of precautions like cloaking or pos's. Except highsec, maybe.
Low security space, no concord, lots of pirates, but anybody can live in a station for years with 100% safety -- wrong approach.
Null security, no concord, no sentries, no penalties, attack whoever you wish, but still anybody can stay docked in a station if he gets inside it and be 100% safe -- wrong approach.
Even in high security, suicide ganking inside stations would be sane.
Eve was not, is not and - I hope - will not be a safe game.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1008 - 2014-09-28 16:53:08 UTC
Precision Zero wrote:
Where is the dislike button?


"A way to find PVP without flying through dozens of empty systems, EVE IS DYING!!!!1111!1$#@#$!!!!"

People these days Roll

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1009 - 2014-09-28 16:53:47 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
sandbox means everyone can do what they want.


It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole.

Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1010 - 2014-09-28 16:55:11 UTC
dexington wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didn’t have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship?


is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox?


Oh I'm sorry, is the fact I don't have 3 hours to dedicate to flying around looking for someone who is willing to engaged without 2:1 odds a problem for you?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1011 - 2014-09-28 16:57:07 UTC
Rammix wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.


Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations.

Lol? If you don't want to risk - don't log in, or use a combination of precautions like cloaking or pos's. Except highsec, maybe.
Low security space, no concord, lots of pirates, but anybody can live in a station for years with 100% safety -- wrong approach.
Null security, no concord, no sentries, no penalties, attack whoever you wish, but still anybody can stay docked in a station if he gets inside it and be 100% safe -- wrong approach.
Even in high security, suicide ganking inside stations would be sane.
Eve was not, is not and - I hope - will not be a safe game.


Except that EVE is, at it's core, a game. If people have to log out of EVE just to AFK because being docked is just as dangerous as being in space ... I can easily see an incredible amount of people finding that to be unacceptably inconvenient and choosing a different game that allows them to still exist as real people in the real world.
Rammix
TheMurk
#1012 - 2014-09-28 17:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
sandbox means everyone can do what they want.


It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole.

Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction.

Aha. Somebody builds a castle. Then his friend comes and the guys build a fenсe around them to play "Duels". Third guy comes to destroy the fence, throws sand at both duelists and smashes their castles. That's sandbox gameplay.
If two guys sit in an isolated room playing with sand and the third one waits for them to come out, unable to interfere - that's not sandbox gameplay.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Rammix
TheMurk
#1013 - 2014-09-28 17:10:32 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Rammix wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.


Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations.

Lol? If you don't want to risk - don't log in, or use a combination of precautions like cloaking or pos's. Except highsec, maybe.
Low security space, no concord, lots of pirates, but anybody can live in a station for years with 100% safety -- wrong approach.
Null security, no concord, no sentries, no penalties, attack whoever you wish, but still anybody can stay docked in a station if he gets inside it and be 100% safe -- wrong approach.
Even in high security, suicide ganking inside stations would be sane.
Eve was not, is not and - I hope - will not be a safe game.


Except that EVE is, at it's core, a game. If people have to log out of EVE just to AFK because being docked is just as dangerous as being in space ... I can easily see an incredible amount of people finding that to be unacceptably inconvenient and choosing a different game that allows them to still exist as real people in the real world.

Not as dangerous as in space at a belt or gate. Just dangerous, at least a bit. With attack taking some efforts or with some restrictions. Don't divide security to 100% vs 0% safe, it's not white and black.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1014 - 2014-09-28 17:15:28 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:


In the same argument, using a jabber ping to amass a force to log on and get instantly Titan bridged on to a target is essentially the same: getting pew pew easy and fast. And from the receiving players end, there isn't anything they can do about it. Remember that when you say you can't affect dojo PVP bc I can't affect "giant blob just bridged on me" PVP. As for the more risk out of the dojo argument: all ships are still getting popped that aren't a training session. Just like the billions that are spent for the AT, billions would be spent by teams competing on tournaments.

I never said the dojo arena is better or should be the only one. In fact I said it would help the overall EVE environment. The sandbox is exactly what it should be, a place where all players have a way to do something. Not everyone likes getting bridged on or blobbed to death but it's still allowed in game and apparently not everyone likes the idea of a fair place to have coordinated fights but it's also being considered being brought into the game. Both will have a place to survive in game and won't step on each other's toes. As I mentioned in the post before, there are still plenty of ways to affect someone else's quick and easy fix PVP


except someone put in the work to know whether they should be pinging or not. and like wise you can affect a blob just bridging on you.

the risk of facing what is in front of you within known rules is far less than the risk of facing what is in front of you plus anyone who wants to come along with absolutely no restrictions as to how many of whatever they want to bring.

the idea that dojo's are as risky as the greater sandbox as a whole is completely false.

again, sandbox means everyone can do what they want. so how is this idea that prevents ppl from hunting you in these 'instances' sandbox? it may not step on my toes much, but if i want to kill you for some vendetta and youre in this space i cant. at that moment the sandbox is no longer a sandbox. even if it lasts only 5 minutes.


Right and someone put in the work to organize a quick PVP session by stocking all the ships and modules ahead of time, therefore knowing whether or not they should be going to the dojo or not.

Please explain to me if I'm in low-sec in a Hyperion running ghost sites and you bridge a 20man fleet on me with 5 logi and a falcon with all Gallente jammers what I can do? Because believe it or not, that's pretty much how the majority of bridges and hot drops work. Also, 9.99/10 times when you bridge, you know exactly what it is your dropping on and how much back-up they have ready, so I would gladly argue the risk is far lower.

Why does the knife not cut both ways? You want to gank me or have the ability to gank me 23.5/7 but I'm not allowed to want 5-15mins of non-gankable time? Give and take my friend, there is literally no difference than you station camping because you want to revenge your vendetta and I just sit in station and go get lunch, except now I'm still actively doing something in game and still losing ships. This is just one tool that would be given players to avoid being griefed by players who have numerous options to disrupt my gameplay. Remember you still have countless dozens of other options to shoot me: station camp me, gate camp me, cloaky camp me, bridge on me at another point, bait me with a neutral alt and then bridge on me. Bump me If I'm doing mining/carebear stuff, pay someone else to gank me when I'm not expecting it, wardec me, shoot my alts/friends and force me to help them. I can keep listing stuff on how you can interrupt my gameplay. Also, the most important part: you can **** in my Cheerios all you want by reinforcing my dojo while I ignore you, therefore limiting my 1 of 3 tools to avoid being disrupted.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1015 - 2014-09-28 17:18:00 UTC
Rammix wrote:
Not as dangerous as in space at a belt or gate. Just dangerous, at least a bit. With attack taking some efforts or with some restrictions. Don't divide security to 100% vs 0% safe, it's not white and black.


If you can attack and destroy my ship when I'm not even undocked, that means the only way to safely AFK is to log off completely. As such, your distinctions don't change what I said.

EVE is a game and every game needs some place where you can AFK in perfect safety. For EVE, it's stations.
Rammix
TheMurk
#1016 - 2014-09-28 17:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Not as dangerous as in space at a belt or gate. Just dangerous, at least a bit. With attack taking some efforts or with some restrictions. Don't divide security to 100% vs 0% safe, it's not white and black.


If you can attack and destroy my ship when I'm not even undocked, that means the only way to safely AFK is to log off completely. As such, your distinctions don't change what I said.

EVE is a game and every game needs some place where you can AFK in perfect safety. For EVE, it's stations.

Not the only way. You can set up a pos - temporary safety, not 100% but pretty enough. You can be afk cloaked on a spot in space (many people spend weeks in hostile systems unable to dock).

If you go afk for couple hours you don't need to be online. If you want to be afk for several minutes - there should be instruments to hide or self-defend in-stations for very short periods of time.
I mean, let it be 85% or even 90% safety, but it should never reach 100% level no matter where and what you do. Safety should be temporary like pos or relative like cloaking. That's what I mean.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1017 - 2014-09-28 17:26:08 UTC
Rammix wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
sandbox means everyone can do what they want.


It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole.

Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction.

Aha. Somebody builds a castle. Then his friend comes and the guys build a fenсe around them to play "Duels". Third guy comes to destroy the fence, throws sand at both duelists and smashes their castles. That's sandbox gameplay.
If two guys sit in an isolated room playing with sand and the third one waits for them to come out, unable to interfere - that's not sandbox gameplay.


See you got lazy with your sandbox. If 2 guys are making sandcastle in a room but the door is locked you can still break the room so they have to find a new room. Then while they are finding a new room you throw sand at them. Or you can break their room and then build your own and advertise to them about your new, special room and how sorry you are to hear about their last room being destroyed. Get them to come over and play in your room then stab them in back by throwing sand at them.

Uggh these damn kids just expected everything to be handed to them on a platter these days....Bear
Seriously, these two options have plenty of ways to coexist and interact in meaningful ways, you just have to open your eyes and be creative.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1018 - 2014-09-28 17:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Rammix wrote:
That's what I mean.


I know what you mean. I stand by what I've said. You have literally all of space in which to take a galactic dump on someone, stations being perfectly safe aren't an unreasonable trade for that.
Rammix
TheMurk
#1019 - 2014-09-28 17:32:36 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
sandbox means everyone can do what they want.


It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole.

Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction.

Aha. Somebody builds a castle. Then his friend comes and the guys build a fenсe around them to play "Duels". Third guy comes to destroy the fence, throws sand at both duelists and smashes their castles. That's sandbox gameplay.
If two guys sit in an isolated room playing with sand and the third one waits for them to come out, unable to interfere - that's not sandbox gameplay.


See you got lazy with your sandbox. If 2 guys are making sandcastle in a room but the door is locked you can still break the room so they have to find a new room. Then while they are finding a new room you throw sand at them. Or you can break their room and then build your own and advertise to them about your new, special room and how sorry you are to hear about their last room being destroyed. Get them to come over and play in your room then stab them in back by throwing sand at them.

Uggh these damn kids just expected everything to be handed to them on a platter these days....Bear
Seriously, these two options have plenty of ways to coexist and interact in meaningful ways, you just have to open your eyes and be creative.

What you described - is a version of the 1st option. The 2nd option means hypothetical full isolation making any interference impossible.
If you mean that dojos should not be fully isolated and impenetrable, then I agree. Ability to interfere and disrupt any activity - is crucial.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Rammix
TheMurk
#1020 - 2014-09-28 17:34:01 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Rammix wrote:
That's what I mean.


I know what you mean. I stand by what I've said. You have literally all of space in which to take a galactic dump on someone, stations being perfectly safe aren't an unreasonable trade for that.

I can agree about stations in highsec. But not nullsec. Lowsec... debatable. Roll

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread