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Prototype: Dojos

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#941 - 2014-09-28 13:58:15 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

I'm pretty sure there's a difference between losing a fight against your opponent because they're a better pilot and losing a fight because a random Tornado showed up and alpha'd you off the field.


Dead is dead.

Nevermind that I'd be really interested to see how they propose to have this abomination permit you to ignore off grid boosts. Because if they can do that, just remove off grid boosts entirely and fix the real problem.


If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.

The wider OGB issue can be fixed right this very second if you don't mind melting the servers into slag, as CCP Fozzie has previously said.

As for "dead is dead", that seems like a gross oversimplification.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#942 - 2014-09-28 14:00:06 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:


"I has broken the sandbox because I said so, despite the fact that dojos are player made and destroyable"

Just like EVE Online stopped being a sandbox in 2005 with the first AT tournament right? It was all a lie.


As you have been told several times now AT takes place in space nobody but CCP can access and uses tools nobody but CCP has access to.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#943 - 2014-09-28 14:01:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bamboozlement wrote:


"I has broken the sandbox because I said so, despite the fact that dojos are player made and destroyable"

Just like EVE Online stopped being a sandbox in 2005 with the first AT tournament right? It was all a lie.


As you have been told several times now AT takes place in space nobody but CCP can access and uses tools nobody but CCP has access to.


And I told you over and over that it was for technical reasons and that dojos will fix it.

I have a Ph.D
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#944 - 2014-09-28 14:03:59 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.


Which neatly removes the "it should exist because tournaments" argument.


Quote:

As for "dead is dead", that seems like a gross oversimplification.


The result is the same, whether you died in your honor duel, or whether you died to a third party, you're still dead.

Although, this module could very well pave the way for the removal of the odious duelling mechanic, so they can un**** Crimewatch finally.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#945 - 2014-09-28 14:05:41 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:


And I told you over and over that it was for technical reasons and that dojos will fix it.


Doesn't change the fact that AT is not comparable to what happens in game as it happens in jove space and uses tools nobody has ever had access to. Please stop trying to use this lie.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#946 - 2014-09-28 14:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.

Which neatly removes the "it should exist because tournaments" argument.


I don't see how. Do 1v1s require being in a fleet?
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#947 - 2014-09-28 14:09:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Doesn't change the fact that AT is not comparable to what happens in game as it happens in jove space and uses tools nobody has ever had access to. Please stop trying to use this lie.


It didn't happen earlier in game just because CCP had no tools for it (hell this they only release this as a prototype in 2014..) you can't give players manual "moveme" and fit check commands, imagine the abuse.. Ugh

My point is : it's in the game since 2005 and players have been trying to emulate that environment/gameplay for years.

Again I respect the fact that you don't like it, but don't try to say it's not in the game.

I have a Ph.D
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#948 - 2014-09-28 14:11:54 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Doesn't change the fact that AT is not comparable to what happens in game as it happens in jove space and uses tools nobody has ever had access to. Please stop trying to use this lie.


It didn't happen earlier in game just because CCP had no tools for it (hell this they only release this as a prototype in 2014..) you can't give players manual "moveme" and fit check commands, imagine the abuse.. Ugh

My point is : it's in the game since 2005 and players have been trying to emulate that environment/gameplay for years.

Again I respect the fact that you don't like it, but don't try to say it's not in the game.


It isn't.

We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#949 - 2014-09-28 14:13:02 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.

Which neatly removes the "it should exist because tournaments" argument.


I don't see how. Do 1v1s require being in a fleet?


No, but being in a fleet tournament sure does. About 80% of the "pro" side of the argument for this thing is "because Alliance Tournament hurr durr!".

If it doesn't allow that, it's literally pointless. On the flip side, if it does allow off grid boosts, it's literally pointless.

There is no good way this thing turns out.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#950 - 2014-09-28 14:16:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It isn't.

We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.


Yes, we had the AT/NEO tournaments and now dojos.

Again you should understand that ganking isn't the only way to interact with people in EVE Online and never was.

Eve is all about risk vs reward, I'm repeating myself because you elude this part over and over.

I have a Ph.D
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#951 - 2014-09-28 14:18:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.

Which neatly removes the "it should exist because tournaments" argument.


I don't see how. Do 1v1s require being in a fleet?


No, but being in a fleet tournament sure does. About 80% of the "pro" side of the argument for this thing is "because Alliance Tournament hurr durr!".

If it doesn't allow that, it's literally pointless. On the flip side, if it does allow off grid boosts, it's literally pointless.

There is no good way this thing turns out.


Assuming that this were expanded in the future to allow larger groups beyond just 1v1 (and I'm not saying it will be or should be, mind you) it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect for it to either require all fleet members to be docked before the tournament can commence, forcibly move all fleet members into the area/automatically boundary-kill any who are off-grid at the time of commencement or simply auto-kick those people from fleet.

Again, it's just conjecture as nobody even knows if this will ever be expanded past 1v1.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#952 - 2014-09-28 14:19:34 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:

Eve is all about risk vs reward, I'm repeating myself because you elude this part over and over.


And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling.

For no tradeoff, and no drawback.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#953 - 2014-09-28 14:20:43 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Again, it's just conjecture as nobody even knows if this will ever be expanded past 1v1.


Or exist in the first place, really. After the last few deployables I have doubts about everything to do with it, nevermind that the guy who programmed it has now left CCP entirely.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#954 - 2014-09-28 14:23:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Bamboozlement wrote:

Eve is all about risk vs reward, I'm repeating myself because you elude this part over and over.


And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling.

For no tradeoff, and no drawback.


That's only because people that duel atm are looking for a fair and controlled environment and duels are far from fair.

If most people that duel are ok with ogb links, pimped modules and implants and neut logi why would they join dojos?

I have a Ph.D
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#955 - 2014-09-28 14:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Bamboozlement wrote:

That's only because people that duel atm are looking for a fair and controlled environment


And such a thing breaks the sandbox. Which means that the answer is "too bad".

Nevermind that you're not giving anything up in exchange for a massive reduction in your risk, what you are asking for in and of itself is unacceptable.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#956 - 2014-09-28 14:28:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Again, it's just conjecture as nobody even knows if this will ever be expanded past 1v1.


Or exist in the first place, really. After the last few deployables I have doubts about everything to do with it, nevermind that the guy who programmed it has now left CCP entirely.


Granted. While I would love to see them come to TQ simply to revel in the unholy shitstorm of rage, tears and bittervet unsubs, I don't actually see it happening. Ever.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#957 - 2014-09-28 14:31:56 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Bamboozlement wrote:

That's only because people that duel atm are looking for a fair and controlled environment


And such a thing breaks the sandbox. Which means that the answer is "too bad".

Nevermind that you're not giving anything up in exchange for a massive reduction in your risk, what you are asking for in and of itself is unacceptable.


Except that dojos are way more risky than duels, if you duel someone you can have a huge advantage over him by having the best modules/implants/ogb links and not only that you can always dock back and change your ship or avoid dying.

Dojos respect the sandbox philosophy : they are player made and destroyable, not only that but EVE Online had consensual fights in controlled environment since 2005 and players have been trying to emulate that environment/gameplay for years.

Please don't blame your poor reading comprehension and knowledge of game mechanics on me, thank you friend. Roll

I have a Ph.D
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#958 - 2014-09-28 14:34:09 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Granted. While I would love to see them come to TQ simply to revel in the unholy shitstorm of rage, tears and bittervet unsubs, I don't actually see it happening. Ever.


Heh, I don't know the CSM is pretty hyped about it and even if CCP Veritas is leaving I doubt CCP would drop a feature that could revitalize the game just because a minority of players with a meta-game agenda are against it.

Ironically it would be worse as a sisi only feature, a lot of people including me would probably play more on sisi than tq.

I have a Ph.D
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#959 - 2014-09-28 14:34:31 UTC
What's to prevent players (say: me and my alt) to use this to make unassailable safe havens in enemy territory?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#960 - 2014-09-28 14:35:29 UTC
Trevor Dalech wrote:
What's to prevent players (say: me and my alt) to use this to make unassailable safe havens in enemy territory?


The fact that after five minutes, your safe haven is gone.