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Prototype: Dojos

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#841 - 2014-09-27 19:26:47 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

Yeah in the same way doing karate on a saturday prepares you for a riot after a foot ball match...Roll

please not on TQ.


You are implying that PVP in eve is always equal to a riot after a football match, which is wrong.

Even if it was the case, learning to control your ship and becoming good at stuff like manual piloting, slingshoting etc might save you someday.

I know it might be hard to understand if all you do is log in to jump to a cyno and press F1 but try to focus. Roll


no its the difference between rules and no rules, fair fights and one sided fights.

one requires sheer piloting skills, the other takes that as well as awareness of environments and what your up against.

they are both completely different and one doesnt prepare you for the other at all except reminding you to overheat apparently. Roll

calm yourself.

Bamboozlement wrote:
What you are trying to say is that since CCP didn't give an option to players to have fair and competitive pvp till now, they shouldn't implement it.


on TQ...

everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#842 - 2014-09-27 19:32:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The real irony here is having you demand a sandbox then in the next sentence demand that everyone elses sandbox be take away.

Also please stop telling both lies and trying to compare totally different things to each other. There has never been a mechanic in place that forces "fair" fights in EVE.


You understand that dojos are destroyable ? You understand that ships will explode ? You understand that ships have to be bought and put in dojos ? You understand that player have to put dojos up ?

Of course you can't interact with the people inside it would be counterproductive since the goal si to provide a competitive and fair environment.

Please try to focus.

I have a Ph.D
joshua boston
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#843 - 2014-09-27 19:34:02 UTC
I am paying this game to play EVE... not World of Warcraft. Go somewhere else with your arena's aka Dojo.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#844 - 2014-09-27 19:36:42 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The real irony here is having you demand a sandbox then in the next sentence demand that everyone elses sandbox be take away.

Also please stop telling both lies and trying to compare totally different things to each other. There has never been a mechanic in place that forces "fair" fights in EVE.


You understand that dojos are destroyable ? You understand that ships will explode ? You understand that ships have to be bought and put in dojos ? You understand that player have to put dojos up ?

Of course you can't interact with the people inside it would be counterproductive since the goal si to provide a competitive and fair environment.

Please try to focus.



The goal is for an arena, you can have that without taking away one of the core selling points of EVE from people.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#845 - 2014-09-27 19:37:18 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

no its the difference between rules and no rules, fair fights and one sided fights.

one requires sheer piloting skills, the other takes that as well as awareness of environments and what your up against.

they are both completely different and one doesnt prepare you for the other at all except reminding you to overheat apparently. Roll

calm yourself.


Are you implying that piloting skills are irrelevant to eve online combat? You can't possibly be serious. Roll

Not only that but dojos would teach you a lot about your engagement profiles and what you can do or can't do against certain type of ships and fits.

Good joke tho.

Daichi Yamato wrote:

on TQ...

everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.


Why do I have to gimp my gameplay and not use TQ just because you don't like it and won't use it?

Using the same logic : is it fair to say to people asking for a better sov null system to go on sisi because fights doesn't matter there?

I have a Ph.D
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#846 - 2014-09-27 19:48:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The goal is for an arena, you can have that without taking away one of the core selling points of EVE from people.


This is your opinion, people don't join eve to gank people, matter of fact a majority of people don't gank especially not when they are new to the game.

Go on the rookie help channel and check how many new players ask how to gank compared to the rest. Roll

Not only that but your logic is flawed; you are implying that people will stop doing :

- FW

- Exploration

- Hauling

- Blobbing

- Corp roams

- Defending their sov

- Bombing

- Hunting

- Running missions

etc

Just because CCP introduced dojos, which is wrong.

Your bias is blinding you and you're posting with a meta-game agenda because this change would mean less gank targets for you if you don't adapt to it.

HTFU like we say in Eve Online.

I have a Ph.D
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#847 - 2014-09-27 19:48:58 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.


So you are okay with multiple shards then?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#848 - 2014-09-27 19:50:37 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.


So you are okay with multiple shards then?


Only when they are test servers.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#849 - 2014-09-27 19:59:19 UTC
So it's okay to have combat where loss is meaningful, and it's okay to have tournaments with structure and enforceable rules, but it's not okay to have tournaments with structure and enforceable rules where loss is meaningful.

The fact that those tournaments can still be messed with doesn't matter because you cannot warp directly to the ships and kill them for your own amusement.

Playstyles A, B, C and D are okay but Playstyle E is not okay because a portion of it is beyond the reach of Playstyle C.

Is that what the problem is? Jesus rollerblading christ, get over yourselves.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#850 - 2014-09-27 19:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Bamboozlement wrote:


Are you implying that piloting skills are irrelevant to eve online combat? You can't possibly be serious. Roll

Not only that but dojos would teach you a lot about your engagement profiles and what you can do or can't do against certain type of ships and fits.

Good joke tho.


the joke is the idea that this will teach ppl to fight in the sandbox and you thinking that the skills are completely transferable.

who said skills are irrelevant? What im saying is that a skill disadvantage can be mitigated. And thats not a bad thing. PvP in the sandbox is about more than the 5 minutes you spend shooting eachother.

your only thinking on a tactical level and EVE is much more than that.

Bamboozlement wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

on TQ...

everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.


Why do I have to gimp my gameplay and not use TQ just because you don't like it and won't use it?

Using the same logic : is it fair to say to people asking for a better sov null system to go on sisi because fights doesn't matter there?


full of strawmans today.

gameplays not gimped. if u want gimmicky PvP with no interruption and special rules you can get that on other servers with no issue.

what becomes gimped is the single shard if these become part of TQ.

id be perfectly fine with them on TQ as long as i can warp in with nado's to grab some shiny officer mods from 'elite' PvPers.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#851 - 2014-09-27 20:01:01 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.


So you are okay with multiple shards then?


another person trying to put words in my mouth rather than actually arguing...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#852 - 2014-09-27 20:09:51 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

the joke is the idea that this will teach ppl to fight in the sandbox and you thinking that the skills are completely transferable.

who said skills are irrelevant? What im saying is that a skill disadvantage can be mitigated. And thats not a bad thing. PvP in the sandbox is about more than the 5 minutes you spend shooting eachother.

your only thinking on a tactical level and EVE is much more than that.


You should teach people how to overheat your Damage Control II because your backpedaling is hilarious. Big smile

You said fighting in the dojos won't help you with fighting in the rest of eve

Daichi Yamato wrote:

Yeah in the same way doing karate on a saturday prepares you for a riot after a foot ball match...Roll


Which is wrong, first of all depending on what you do small scale pvp is still a huge part of eve, of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc" but one day you might get a good hero tackle because you learned how to manually pilot.

Or one day you might survive a small scale engagement at 1% structure because you kited properly thanks to your experience against those ships in the dojos.

Please be joking. Roll

I have a Ph.D
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#853 - 2014-09-27 20:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
back pedaling is all yours

'of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc"

this kind of 'meta-game' awareness or the ability to form and fund larger fleets are much more likely to allow you to succeed in eve than actual pilot skill. thats what i was saying all along.

if you dont like the riot analogy, change it to a street fight. if all you know is fair fights, set numbers and rules, you arent much cop when anyone can bring any number of weapons and friends to a fight or you can be interrupted at anytime by a third party.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#854 - 2014-09-27 20:30:13 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.


So you are okay with multiple shards then?


another person trying to put words in my mouth rather than actually arguing...


Are you or are you not ok with multiple shards. Because that is what Singularity is turning into, a consentual PvP shard.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#855 - 2014-09-27 20:32:33 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
back pedaling is all yours

'of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc"

this kind of 'meta-game' awareness or the ability to form and fund larger fleets are much more likely to allow you to succeed in eve than actual pilot skill. thats what i was saying all along.

if you dont like the riot analogy, change it to a street fight. if all you know is fair fights, set numbers and rules, you arent much cop when anyone can bring any number of weapons and friends to a fight or you can be interrupted at anytime by a third party.



Except that mechanical skill is still relevant even with non-consensual fights, please read my post again. Roll

Manual piloting is what makes the difference between a good tackle and a great tackle, same for small to mid gang engagements that logi surviving because he had good angular velocity/positioning might win you the fight.

I guess it might be too hard to understand for someone that only play the game to press f1. Roll

I have a Ph.D
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#856 - 2014-09-27 20:37:58 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:


Are you or are you not ok with multiple shards. Because that is what Singularity is turning into, a consentual PvP shard.


im not ok with multiple shards. If sisi became a consensual PvP shard with an economy it would be ultima online all over again.

as long as Sisi is a test server with seeded items, then they can have uninterruptible PvP.

Bamboozlement wrote:

Except that mechanical skill is still relevant even with non-consensual fights, please read my post again. Roll

Manual piloting is what makes the difference between a good tackle and a great tackle, same for small to mid gang engagements that logi surviving because he had good angular velocity/positioning might win you the fight.

I guess it might be too hard to understand for someone that only play the game to press f1. Roll



you need to read my posts again. not at any point did i say pilot skill is irrelevant. it was you that tried to put those words in my mouth.

i implied that these dojo's would be as useful for PvP training as karate would be for riots. some of that karate might be useful on a tactical level, but not really where it matters.

/de-rail.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#857 - 2014-09-27 20:39:22 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
back pedaling is all yours

'of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc"

this kind of 'meta-game' awareness or the ability to form and fund larger fleets are much more likely to allow you to succeed in eve than actual pilot skill. thats what i was saying all along.

if you dont like the riot analogy, change it to a street fight. if all you know is fair fights, set numbers and rules, you arent much cop when anyone can bring any number of weapons and friends to a fight or you can be interrupted at anytime by a third party.



Except that mechanical skill is still relevant even with non-consensual fights, please read my post again. Roll

Manual piloting is what makes the difference between a good tackle and a great tackle, same for small to mid gang engagements that logi surviving because he had good angular velocity/positioning might win you the fight.

I guess it might be too hard to understand for someone that only play the game to press f1. Roll


Tackle in these dojos is redundant as the enemy is going nowhere so thats one lesson they will not be learning from these things.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#858 - 2014-09-27 20:51:53 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


you need to read my posts again. not at any point did i say pilot skill is irrelevant. it was you that tried to put those words in my mouth.

i implied that these dojo's would be as useful for PvP training as karate would be for riots. some of that karate might be useful on a tactical level, but not really where it matters.

/de-rail.


Thanks for backpedaling from your initial statement that implied your dojo experience won't be useful in the rest of eve.

We both agree that it's not the case then.

baltec1 wrote:

Tackle in these dojos is redundant as the enemy is going nowhere so thats one lesson they will not be learning from these things.


Can confirm that manual piloting in fw plexes is also useless when people don't run. /s Roll

I have a Ph.D
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#859 - 2014-09-27 20:58:56 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


im not ok with multiple shards. If sisi became a consensual PvP shard with an economy it would be ultima online all over again.

as long as Sisi is a test server with seeded items, then they can have uninterruptible PvP.


Ah, so what it comes down to is money then. You get a perverse sense of power and control out of taking things away from others that they worked for. That explains a lot.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#860 - 2014-09-27 21:03:20 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

full of strawmans today.

gameplays not gimped. if u want gimmicky PvP with no interruption and special rules you can get that on other servers with no issue.

what becomes gimped is the single shard if these become part of TQ.

id be perfectly fine with them on TQ as long as i can warp in with nado's to grab some shiny officer mods from 'elite' PvPers.


Why do you consider it gimmicky pvp? What if I consider blobbing gimmicky pvp? Is consensual pvp or even mining worse gameplay than ganking or blobbing?

You didn't reply when I asked you what if we did the same to people asking for changes in sov null, why is that?

Yes because elite pvpers are known to fly shiny officer mods ships. Roll

Are you sure you play this videogame?

I have a Ph.D