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Rebalance Cloakers Before Modules
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Lugh Crow-Slave
#21 - 2014-09-26 03:34:49 UTC
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:

I don't think the class should be balanced around being gank ships only and having no hope to survive a more conventional fight if it develops. Thats exactly what has made them into mobile jump bridges that rarely see combat unless dropping 20 strong on a mining barge in an empty system. The rest of the time, you're better off bridging bombers through.

Now, this can be approached in several ways: either make blops more capable of holding their own against a conventional fleet so they can be used to support the bombers, or make them fully focused on bridging, with greater bonuses to range/fuel use/logistics/whatever, while dropping their damage capability.

As someone who owns two of the hulls, I very much hope CCP take the former route, so that we no longer get outdps'd by two well fit bombers while costing 30 times more.


PS: it's the same catch as with supers... not enough die, because there are few situations where you'd want to field one outside of ganks and sov warfare. In the first case, you're pretty sure you'll melt the target and moonwalk out, in the second, you count on huge reinforcements if something goes wrong. Blops don't get the luxury of multi-million HP tanks, so there is little hope of the cavalry arriving, hence only the gank scenario remains.



Blops are designed for hit and run not sustained fights against an opponent that's what is great about them. having a panther hide in a fleet uncloak and blap a target then re cloak b4 the enemy even knows it was there, or a fight starts going upside down jump a widow or two in to jam the hostile fleet long enough for friendlies to get out. Maybe you want to go the other way with it and bring in a few redeemers at rang to pop a few targets fast and turn the tide in your favor.

if you are only using your BLOP as a brige/gank ship its because you don't know how to use it not because it just needs to be a conventional BB with a jump drive.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Alundil
Rolled Out
#22 - 2014-09-26 03:47:28 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
3 cloak posts this week... Too much, but sadly far from record.

INB4L

Instance #10578987.01 of someone posting before reading

I'm right behind you
Lugh Crow-Slave
#23 - 2014-09-26 03:49:13 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
3 cloak posts this week... Too much, but sadly far from record.

INB4L

Instance #10578987.01 of someone posting before reading


no there have been about 3 BLOPS/recon post this week

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Aivlis Eldelbar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-09-26 09:45:08 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:

...


Blops are designed for hit and run not sustained fights against an opponent that's what is great about them. having a panther hide in a fleet uncloak and blap a target then re cloak b4 the enemy even knows it was there, or a fight starts going upside down jump a widow or two in to jam the hostile fleet long enough for friendlies to get out. Maybe you want to go the other way with it and bring in a few redeemers at rang to pop a few targets fast and turn the tide in your favor.

if you are only using your BLOP as a brige/gank ship its because you don't know how to use it not because it just needs to be a conventional BB with a jump drive.


Ah, the l2p argument, very nice.

Consider this: if you are using them as support, why not bridge in (or take with you in the first place) a T1 equivalent? A Scorpion will have more tank than a Widow with only slightly worse ECM performance, a Panther has trouble fitting both 1400mm arty and any sort of tank, the Redeemer is sort of ok but has some severe cap issues after jumping because of it's lasers, the Sin... I don't even know what it's supposed to excell at, I've mostly seen it acting as improvised logi or in-your-face dps blasterboat.

And then there's the cost and SP factor. A fitted Scorpion will set you back 200M tops. A fitted Widow will be anywhere from 1B to 1.5B even if you don't bling it too much, since some faction mods are pretty much required on a blops for them to perform (faction cloak bc/ lock speed, usually faction heavy neut for safety and faction cap injector because of fitting issues, and that's before starting with damage mods and tank...)

I'm not saying you can't use them out of a gank/bridge scenario; I'm saying that out of those two situations, you can have 5x T1 battleships for a similar price tag and are more likely to find pilots for them, putting their worth into doubt.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-09-26 10:04:16 UTC
I think we can all agree if CCP slapped a covops cloak on the blops boats as their rebalance we'd all be pretty happy with that. Easy fix.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#26 - 2014-09-26 10:14:38 UTC
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:

...


Blops are designed for hit and run not sustained fights against an opponent that's what is great about them. having a panther hide in a fleet uncloak and blap a target then re cloak b4 the enemy even knows it was there, or a fight starts going upside down jump a widow or two in to jam the hostile fleet long enough for friendlies to get out. Maybe you want to go the other way with it and bring in a few redeemers at rang to pop a few targets fast and turn the tide in your favor.

if you are only using your BLOP as a brige/gank ship its because you don't know how to use it not because it just needs to be a conventional BB with a jump drive.


Ah, the l2p argument, very nice.

Consider this: if you are using them as support, why not bridge in (or take with you in the first place) a T1 equivalent? A Scorpion will have more tank than a Widow with only slightly worse ECM performance, a Panther has trouble fitting both 1400mm arty and any sort of tank, the Redeemer is sort of ok but has some severe cap issues after jumping because of it's lasers, the Sin... I don't even know what it's supposed to excell at, I've mostly seen it acting as improvised logi or in-your-face dps blasterboat.

And then there's the cost and SP factor. A fitted Scorpion will set you back 200M tops. A fitted Widow will be anywhere from 1B to 1.5B even if you don't bling it too much, since some faction mods are pretty much required on a blops for them to perform (faction cloak bc/ lock speed, usually faction heavy neut for safety and faction cap injector because of fitting issues, and that's before starting with damage mods and tank...)

I'm not saying you can't use them out of a gank/bridge scenario; I'm saying that out of those two situations, you can have 5x T1 battleships for a similar price tag and are more likely to find pilots for them, putting their worth into doubt.


its not all that easy to move 5x bbs to the fight and even harder to get your opponent to engage you in that case.

also blops are there mainly as support ships able to move with a recon/cov ops fleet swiftly ideally you only engage with the recons and stealth bombers but you have the blops ready to jump if they are needed. this is not something you can do with a T1


(on a side note with the redeemer bridge it don't jump it takes a bit more fuel to do but saves the cap)

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#27 - 2014-09-26 10:16:00 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I think we can all agree if CCP slapped a covops cloak on the blops boats as their rebalance we'd all be pretty happy with that. Easy fix.


this would cause them to become far to powerful and in the case of the widow almost un-catch able

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-09-26 11:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
snorkle25 wrote:
El Creepo wrote:
With the exception of the might big jump drive strapped to their arse?


This isn't really an advantage, allow me to illustrate:

Two fleets jump onto a battle in eve, fleet A is 20 BLOP'S (about 1.5-2B apiece fully fit) with 5 recons and some bombers. Fleet B is 25 T1 armor BS (say Dominixs) with 10 guardians. Which fleet wins? At the current level of balance

problem: how do that t1 fleet get in system as fast as the blops bridged fleet without a titan bridging it? so fleet b is 25 t1 armors, 10 guardians and a titan (even if it wont jump is still required to have the fleet at all) and titan support or it wont ever get in system in time to catch the blop one.
I say that balance changes pretty heavily here, if you go for equal costs just how many blops can you build for a single titan?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-09-26 11:04:42 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I think we can all agree if CCP slapped a covops cloak on the blops boats as their rebalance we'd all be pretty happy with that. Easy fix.


this would cause them to become far to powerful and in the case of the widow almost un-catch able



People keep saying the covops cloak makes them too good but I can't understand why.

It's not as if they are majorly fast lockers - I must be missing something.....but can someone enlighten me?
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-09-26 11:05:20 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.

Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin.

some tweaks are so easy that can be made just discussing them during coffee break, some other requires months of development.
t3 rebalance probably will require a direct God intervention tho.
El Creepo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-09-26 11:40:38 UTC
snorkle25 wrote:
El Creepo wrote:
With the exception of the might big jump drive strapped to their arse?


This isn't really an advantage, allow me to illustrate:

Two fleets jump onto a battle in eve, fleet A is 20 BLOP'S (about 1.5-2B apiece fully fit) with 5 recons and some bombers. Fleet B is 25 T1 armor BS (say Dominixs) with 10 guardians. Which fleet wins? At the current level of balance, the T1 conventional fleet wins because they tank more damage and can bring logistics along with them.

Sure the BLOP BS can jump itself there, but once it gets there, it's worse than any T1 BS there. What good is a built in jump drive when everyone in their mother has a Titan to bridge in whole conventional fleets? Even BRAVE, the unofficial newbie alliance of EVE, has access to Titans to bridge their fleets.

Sure the case can be made for Cov ops cynos in jammed systems, but the BLOP fleet without inherent logistics can't tank a POS, much less a defending fleet, long enough to take down a cyno jammer.

The fact remains there isn't any role in game for this ship, besides bridging bombers, that can't be done better and more efficiently by another hull. This is by definition exactly what CCP set out to fix with the tiericide program.

Thats completely not how you use a blops, not how they should be used not even... just... ARG!

Seriously.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#32 - 2014-09-26 11:42:29 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.

Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin.

Because they can't possibly have two projects working at the same time.....
Take some concrete pills, add 2 common sense pills, and add a dose of patience.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#33 - 2014-09-26 13:07:54 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.

Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin.

Because they can't possibly have two projects working at the same time.....
Take some concrete pills, add 2 common sense pills, and add a dose of patience.


No ideas on the BLOP that are based on experience because I really just started looking into them as a potential to train for but some thoughts do occur here.
The BLOP re-balance will be part of the larger whole of whatever happens to nul.
Maybe CCP is happy with where the BLOP are and have no intent on a re-balance.

Again based on a very limited amount of study of these ships but it seems logical that they are not intended to go fleet to fleet in any type of a sustained engagement, hit and run on smaller higher value targets seems to be the intended role. Just as an example you have a fleet engaged and have identified a critical target say the opponents FC. Jump in BLOP destroy that one ship and then jump out again. Or use a single BLOP to bring in a small bomber fleet to accomplish the same task.

If they gave the BLOP the same tank and gank abilities as the T1 hulls I can only imagine what would be said in the numerous BLOP are OP and need a nerf topics that would pop up.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#34 - 2014-09-26 13:10:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.

Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin.

Because they can't possibly have two projects working at the same time.....
Take some concrete pills, add 2 common sense pills, and add a dose of patience.


Show me on the chart where CCP has ever actually finished anything that they've started - especially when they've started something else before finishing the first thing.

If you can do that, then you can tell me about "CCP has the ability to work on more than one thing" and "have some patience".
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-09-26 15:42:39 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.

Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin.

Because they can't possibly have two projects working at the same time.....
Take some concrete pills, add 2 common sense pills, and add a dose of patience.


Show me on the chart where CCP has ever actually finished anything that they've started - especially when they've started something else before finishing the first thing.

If you can do that, then you can tell me about "CCP has the ability to work on more than one thing" and "have some patience".


Also I'm reminded that CCP themselves are quick to point out they only have so many people working for them. In fact the thread where players were petitioning for the jukebox to be returned, some DM posted something along the lines of "That's fine and all, BUT you do realize if we devote resources into bringing the music player back, then other projects won't get the work and attention they need".

So yes it makes all the sense in the world to dog-pile on them and tell them to finish important work and do things in a logical order.

BUT!

On his side, someone earlier in the thread made a comment about working on things "that someone can do on their coffee break that won't detract from the resources of bigger projects". It's entirely possible that this small bit of module tiericide was small enough to squeeze into this release and it didn't require a lot of time to do. I saw their blog post about what they're doing with the modules in this iteration, and it looks freaking awesome and rather well thought-out. I think this is a good thing, so long as the proper attention is still given to ships needing balanced. We get to enjoy some benefits of the tiericide NOW, before the long-term goal of ship balance is complete (because let's be honest, it'll probably be a while before it's done. That's not a slight against CCP, it's a complicated process and there's still a lot of ships waiting for their turn).

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#36 - 2014-09-26 19:12:54 UTC
afkalt wrote:
[quote=Lugh Crow-Slave]

People keep saying the covops cloak makes them too good but I can't understand why.

It's not as if they are majorly fast lockers - I must be missing something.....but can someone enlighten me?


The ability to move around a system free of D-scan and ambush targets with no further warning then being in local is one. As of now they need a Cyno to be moved into place first something that is harder to do and provides more warning.

The fact that cov-cloaks have no speed or scan res penalty (something the blops have been balanced around dealing with)

and if we want to look at a widow it would be able to jam your fleet and warp off w/o you knowing the direction to try for an intercept.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-09-26 19:46:30 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I partly see your point but it doesn't seem fundamentally broken to me. Not considering their battleship lock time as well as their price point (I know it's not a balancing factor in general but it still factors in).

I may be wrong, I just can't see them becoming 'problem' ships. It's not massively different to popping a covert cyno to pull them on grid. Slightly cheaper, but I mean if people want to roll about in billion isk ships trying for ambushes then more power to them tbh - lots will pop and that's a good thing :)

Maybe I'm wrong, I think in addition to other tweaks they'd be pretty ok with it - couldn't just add them then do nothing else.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#38 - 2014-09-26 20:09:40 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I partly see your point but it doesn't seem fundamentally broken to me. Not considering their battleship lock time as well as their price point (I know it's not a balancing factor in general but it still factors in).

I may be wrong, I just can't see them becoming 'problem' ships. It's not massively different to popping a covert cyno to pull them on grid. Slightly cheaper, but I mean if people want to roll about in billion isk ships trying for ambushes then more power to them tbh - lots will pop and that's a good thing :)

Maybe I'm wrong, I think in addition to other tweaks they'd be pretty ok with it - couldn't just add them then do nothing else.


they have the highest scan res of any battle ships and fit right w/o a cloak on you can get them to frig lock speed

as for it being a good thing CCP has stated that if a battle ship ever gets a Cov ops cloak they will get a massive nurf.


But yes it would be cool and they would have a bigger presence in WH it would just make things unbalanced as they are now.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-09-26 21:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugia3
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I partly see your point but it doesn't seem fundamentally broken to me. Not considering their battleship lock time as well as their price point (I know it's not a balancing factor in general but it still factors in).

I may be wrong, I just can't see them becoming 'problem' ships. It's not massively different to popping a covert cyno to pull them on grid. Slightly cheaper, but I mean if people want to roll about in billion isk ships trying for ambushes then more power to them tbh - lots will pop and that's a good thing :)

Maybe I'm wrong, I think in addition to other tweaks they'd be pretty ok with it - couldn't just add them then do nothing else.


they have the highest scan res of any battle ships and fit right w/o a cloak on you can get them to frig lock speed

as for it being a good thing CCP has stated that if a battle ship ever gets a Cov ops cloak they will get a massive nurf.


But yes it would be cool and they would have a bigger presence in WH it would just make things unbalanced as they are now.


Black ops battleships already have a massive nerf. They're battlecruisers that cost a billion ISK.

That said, they should at least be buffed to be between T1 battleships and Navy battleships. Forget covops cloak please. Would rather be able to kill things than look at them.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
El Creepo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-09-27 08:04:10 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I partly see your point but it doesn't seem fundamentally broken to me. Not considering their battleship lock time as well as their price point (I know it's not a balancing factor in general but it still factors in).

I may be wrong, I just can't see them becoming 'problem' ships. It's not massively different to popping a covert cyno to pull them on grid. Slightly cheaper, but I mean if people want to roll about in billion isk ships trying for ambushes then more power to them tbh - lots will pop and that's a good thing :)

Maybe I'm wrong, I think in addition to other tweaks they'd be pretty ok with it - couldn't just add them then do nothing else.


they have the highest scan res of any battle ships and fit right w/o a cloak on you can get them to frig lock speed

as for it being a good thing CCP has stated that if a battle ship ever gets a Cov ops cloak they will get a massive nurf.


But yes it would be cool and they would have a bigger presence in WH it would just make things unbalanced as they are now.


Black ops battleships already have a massive nerf. They're battlecruisers that cost a billion ISK.

That said, they should at least be buffed to be between T1 battleships and Navy battleships. Forget covops cloak please. Would rather be able to kill things than look at them.

No. They f**king. Should not.
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