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Prototype: Dojos

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#441 - 2014-09-25 18:16:50 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Fair points, and I would agree with you if the pilots were getting any reward out of arenas... or if EVE were a simpler game to learn combat in... but neither are true.
So the people who are out roaming are going to be people looking for rewards, or to attain objectives other than PvP. Sounds great.

Ranger 1 wrote:
Also consider that "someone" has to foot the bill for the arena itself and pay for stocking it with ships and modules. That in itself is going to be a detriment to people just living in the arena.

If I put one up you can be certain that only pilots I invite would be allowed access, and there would be a point to the matches. As altruistic as I am, I'm not going to pay for strangers to sit around and blow each other up just for giggles.
You might not, but others will. Crazier things have happened.

Actually that link brings up an interesting question, if/when arenas are added: Who will get more money donated to them, the group who uses it to fund non-consensual PvP or the group who uses it to fund consensual PvP?

Big smileBig smileBig smile Good question.

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Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#442 - 2014-09-25 18:20:28 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:

If two members want to engage in combat with no chance of outside interference, that is their choice.



Please stop the low/null [insert] from hot dropping our good fights.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#443 - 2014-09-25 18:22:37 UTC
Arrendis wrote:


How's this different from POSgunning when a fleet shows up to RF a tower?



Fleet incaps guns, fleet is invulnerable to gun damage.

Arrendis wrote:

The gunner can't be killed. His ship can't be damaged. All he needs to do is safe logoff after the POS goes into RF, and until then, collect any kills he wants.


The last competent POS that killed a lot of us was our own tower that went skynet. All other towers are incapped so fast POS gunning is more or less pointless.

Arrendis wrote:

The dojo can be RF'd. The assets in space can be destroyed. The only thing that can't be a guaranteed 'it's dead, jim', is the pod, because the guys inside aren't there when they're not fighting. So where's the difference between these guys, and the solo POSgunner?
Its a 48 hour timer, the assets will be gone.
Arrendis wrote:

I mean, personally, I see this as a step up from people going to Sisi to duel - people going to Sisi, you can't cause them meaningful harm on Tranq, and they don't even lose any assets. Here, at least it's costing someone money just to do it, right? And you can RF the dojo, even if you can't warp into the deadspace pocket 'inside', so you can screw with their future fights preemptively.


As an idea for a tool for organising events is a good one, its just the not ******* around with combatants thats the issue. You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. That and the ways we can abuse it because of this no ******* around inside mechanic.
Nyctef
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#444 - 2014-09-25 18:26:26 UTC
ooh
what if you stripped it down to the essentials and just had something that could generate frigate-only deadspace pockets
like portable FW plexes
it'd have to have a huge spool-up time, like 10 hours (because creating deadspace pockets is hard, right?) but you could dump it on your next stratop location
and force it to be a frigate-only fight :D

sure, it'd create a huge defender advantage, but that's what the long spool-up time is for
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#445 - 2014-09-25 18:29:06 UTC
Nyctef wrote:
ooh
what if you stripped it down to the essentials and just had something that could generate frigate-only deadspace pockets
like portable FW plexes
it'd have to have a huge spool-up time, like 10 hours (because creating deadspace pockets is hard, right?) but you could dump it on your next stratop location
and force it to be a frigate-only fight :D

sure, it'd create a huge defender advantage, but that's what the long spool-up time is for


So dump it on a POS and force everyone to fight over it with frigates?
Johnathan Coffey
Niforce Triggers
#446 - 2014-09-25 18:29:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights.

I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want.

First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#447 - 2014-09-25 18:31:01 UTC
Johnathan Coffey wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights.

I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want.


Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#448 - 2014-09-25 18:35:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Johnathan Coffey wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights.

I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want.


Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE.


No it might kill a small part of the already small solo pvp community that go and try to find fair fights.

And this is only relevant if you gank this kind of pvper, it won't kill pvp at all and it'll bring more people to eve by giving them an interesting short to mid term objective and people (good solo pvpers) to look up to.

"if you don't agree with me pvp will randomly die, also eve will die"

I have a Ph.D
Sahriah BloodStone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#449 - 2014-09-25 18:36:07 UTC
Seems to me that the people trying to 'protect eve's core nature' are doing the opposite based on a unproven assumption that it will take over the game.

Perhaps instead of instantly disliking the idea you guys can find constructive ways to improve the idea to prevent the things you don't want happening from happening

I think its fairly obvious that people require a few things.
1. All assets are destroyable inside the ring including pods
2. Dojo's can be reinforced/destroyed along with everything inside
3. Dojo's drop loot when destroyed
4. Some kind of limit needs to be imposed to prevent everyone from only using dojos forever.
Limit to 1v1's? Only playable X matches per week?

Dojo's would allow new people or care bears to practice pvp in an environment they feel is educational. Being ganked by 20 dudes can only educate you so much. This allows more people a controlled access to pvp and will increase the amount of people learning and engaging in pvp.

It should also be lore related. some kind of minmatar capsuleer game? Through lore you can implement restrictions that people are looking for.

You people need to start working WITH ccp instead of against them.

Sahriah Bloodstone

No.Mercy // Triumvirate

"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "
Django Askulf
Black Rebel Death Squad
#450 - 2014-09-25 18:36:18 UTC
Stupid idea.
Neutral Haulermeister
The Corporate Raiders
#451 - 2014-09-25 18:36:34 UTC
This would be Great!














On Sisi, on TQ PvP should be as fair as all involved allow it to be, If I want to fight there are duels, yellow cans, everything that isn't high-sec, war-decs for a reason.
Also if you make this people will abuse the **** out of it to not get scanned down.

Accepts your stuff if you're quitting EVE, Please mail and contract me your stuff.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#452 - 2014-09-25 18:36:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Fleet incaps guns, fleet is invulnerable to gun damage.


Ok, and how's that different from 'guys aren't shooting back' because they're inside the dojo?

baltec1 wrote:

Its a 48 hour timer, the assets will be gone.


No confirmation on that - personally, I'd think when it gets RF'd, you shouldn't be able to extract any assets. It's non-functional at that point, and transferring things in and out is a function.

In addition, how does it get stocked? Do you do it from station, or do you have to take a hauler/carrier out to stock/unstock it? If you have to actually bring the stuff to it, and it's got an anchoring timer (so it can't be stocked immediately), then doesn't that make these things a potential target, and the hauler coming to put stuff into it even more of a target?

And if items can be removed from it during RF via hauler, then doesn't that just make an RF'd dojo cloaky dictor-bait, waiting for the owner to come and try to save his stuff?
Johnathan Coffey
Niforce Triggers
#453 - 2014-09-25 18:37:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Johnathan Coffey wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights.

I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want.


Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE.

How can you not see the flaw in that conclusion? Firstly, not everyone is interested in "fair" pvp. Secondly, not everyone is interested in small-scale PvP. Thirdly, and a null-sec resident should know this, not all PvP is just about killing each other and e-honor. The only PvP "areas" that will suffer are those where players would much rather prefer to fight "arena style" but can't.

First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#454 - 2014-09-25 18:40:32 UTC
Sahriah BloodStone wrote:
Seems to me that the people trying to 'protect eve's core nature' are doing the opposite based on a unproven assumption that it will take over the game.

Perhaps instead of instantly disliking the idea you guys can find constructive ways to improve the idea to prevent the things you don't want happening from happening

I think its fairly obvious that people require a few things.
1. All assets are destroyable inside the ring including pods
2. Dojo's can be reinforced/destroyed along with everything inside
3. Dojo's drop loot when destroyed
4. Some kind of limit needs to be imposed to prevent everyone from only using dojos forever.
Limit to 1v1's? Only playable X matches per week?

Dojo's would allow new people or care bears to practice pvp in an environment they feel is educational. Being ganked by 20 dudes can only educate you so much. This allows more people a controlled access to pvp and will increase the amount of people learning and engaging in pvp.

It should also be lore related. some kind of minmatar capsuleer game? Through lore you can implement restrictions that people are looking for.

You people need to start working WITH ccp instead of against them.


We have, let the combatants be scannable so we can still backstab people. Even if they are hard to scan down it would remove the big issues with them.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#455 - 2014-09-25 18:41:31 UTC
Johnathan Coffey wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights.

I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want.

No, it's a vaild concern. This absolutely MUST be handled in a way that does not negatively impact regular PVP. So if this is done a lot of thought must go into how it is implemented.

That being said, I can't help but think of this as to ability to kill someone when you normally would not be able to.

Essentially they dock at a station and do not really undock in the normal sense of the word. For all intents and purposes they are still docked... except they can still get blown up. Which, in many ways, has been the holy grail of PVP in EVE. Big smile

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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#456 - 2014-09-25 18:41:39 UTC
Is there going to be honor points and pvp gear? If not 0/10

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#457 - 2014-09-25 18:43:26 UTC
Arrendis wrote:


No confirmation on that - personally, I'd think when it gets RF'd, you shouldn't be able to extract any assets. It's non-functional at that point, and transferring things in and out is a function.

In addition, how does it get stocked? Do you do it from station, or do you have to take a hauler/carrier out to stock/unstock it? If you have to actually bring the stuff to it, and it's got an anchoring timer (so it can't be stocked immediately), then doesn't that make these things a potential target, and the hauler coming to put stuff into it even more of a target?

And if items can be removed from it during RF via hauler, then doesn't that just make an RF'd dojo cloaky dictor-bait, waiting for the owner to come and try to save his stuff?


These are things that have yet to be announced. For now based upon the info we have the only sticking point is the instanced matches.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#458 - 2014-09-25 18:43:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE.

You mean PPPPPBvP, right?
Player, player, player, player, player, booster vs. hapless Player - right?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#459 - 2014-09-25 18:45:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

These are things that have yet to be announced. For now based upon the info we have the only sticking point is the instanced matches.


Right, but functionally, what we're looking at is no different (since the structure can be scanned down) from 'this is a new type of POS where individuals can only target other players inside the forcefield', no?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#460 - 2014-09-25 18:46:03 UTC
Neutral Haulermeister wrote:
This would be Great!














On Sisi, on TQ PvP should be as fair as all involved allow it to be, If I want to fight there are duels, yellow cans, everything that isn't high-sec, war-decs for a reason.
Also if you make this people will abuse the **** out of it to not get scanned down.

To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Big smile
Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.