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Prototype: Dojos

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LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#421 - 2014-09-25 17:59:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.


Then quit.


I wonder, why are you even here?

You want to change everything about EVE to be just like every other game out there. Why beg and plead to change EVE rather than play those games?


I will answer your question with a question of my own.

Why are you still here? Times, they be-a-changin' , you can clearly see the writing on the wall - CCP is preparing to mainstream the game and sell itself. Your 'gameplay' days are numbered - I can guarantee you they will, one step at a time, remove most of the more unpleasant aspects of the game.

So, why are YOU still here, rather then on kickstarter trying to start up a True Sandbox game of some kind?
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#422 - 2014-09-25 18:00:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


i get it, i really do. you don't care about what EVE is.

Well, i do, sorry.


I care a lot about what EVE is, but more importantly I care a lot more about giving people options to play this game that are fun for them because a sandbox is not only about being able to do anything you want anytime you want, but also about being able to pursue the options of HOW you want to do things and I feel like these dojos offer an alternative to HOW people pursue 1v1 combat, but they are still about to do so anytime, anywhere. It's hard to see how that is as big of a violation as you make it out to be.

Oh, and I forgive you.

I am sorry how easy it is to misconstrue a genuine belief that game developers in a unique game such as this would actually care enough about their players to do the work they do. How silly for me trust in them enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and the understanding that they come from good intentions when they test new material.

Please forgive me.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#423 - 2014-09-25 18:02:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.

Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :

-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)

-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)

-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)

As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.



Except you're wrong, this is a sandbox people don't even have to shoot other people.

For example if people in nullsec stopped shooting each others it wouldn't make eve less of a sandbox, ironically it's the exact opposite.
CCP introduced consensual pvp with stuff like NEO and the AT, and players were already making videos of solo pvp recording their good fights.

Too bad you don't like it.

I have a Ph.D
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#424 - 2014-09-25 18:02:43 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Well, because there is no tangible reward for it in an arena...


There isn't in solo pvp either.

Ranger 1 wrote:

and you are also limited to the ships and fittings the arena offers you... and the fact that there is a boundary to deal with... and you can't use tactical warp in/warp outs. There are a large number of reasons why people that actually are looking for PVP will only use the arenas for certain things, as a test bed and perhaps as a training arena for new pilots.


Other games also had limitations on the arenas and that didn't stop them from taking over.


Ranger 1 wrote:

It will always lack the depth, variety, and reward of actual PVP... they are simply a convenient way to do certain (limited) things.

Don't get me wrong, I quite see what you are worried about. But I think it would be fairly simple to avoid those potential pitfalls.


Easy risk free PvP on demand will always trump roaming around hostile dangerous space with no guarantee of a fight.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#425 - 2014-09-25 18:03:14 UTC
Ruric Thyase wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


i get it, i really do. you don't care about what EVE is.

Well, i do, sorry.


I care a lot about what EVE is, but more importantly I care a lot more about giving people options to play this game that are fun for them because a sandbox is not only about being able to do anything you want anytime you want, but also about being able to pursue the options of HOW you want to do things and I feel like these dojos offer an alternative to HOW people pursue 1v1 combat, but they are still about to do so anytime, anywhere. It's hard to see how that is as big of a violation as you make it out to be.

Oh, and I forgive you.

I am sorry how easy it is to misconstrue a genuine belief that game developers in a unique game such as this would actually care enough about their players to do the work they do. How silly for me trust in them enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and the understanding that they come from good intentions when they test new material.

Please forgive me.


Good intentions have ruined many a game. SMART intentions are what's called for. Violating a core principal of your game (even in a smallish way) is not smart.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#426 - 2014-09-25 18:04:15 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Worst Case Scenario: The new pilots you get won't be completely clueless about combat fittings, and anxiety ridden about losing a ship... thus making your job of showing them how to actually PVP in EVE a little bit easier.
Less time lost explaining the basics, less whining, less irritation for you.
While I can't echo baltec's doom and gloom because I haven't seen this happen in person, do you really believe the worst case outcome of the combination of EVE's legendarily risk-averse playerbase and risk-free PvP is an improvement of the risk-based PvP?

People will inevitably crowd towards the easier modes a game has to offer, while I haven't seen it in MMOGs (due to not having played them), I have in pretty much every non-MMOG I've played. Starting people off in those easier modes is also a hilariously terrible way to try to get them into the harder ones.

Fair points, and I would agree with you if the pilots were getting any reward out of arenas... or if EVE were a simpler game to learn combat in... but neither are true.

Also consider that "someone" has to foot the bill for the arena itself and pay for stocking it with ships and modules. That in itself is going to be a detriment to people just living in the arena.

If I put one up you can be certain that only pilots I invite would be allowed access, and there would be a point to the matches. As altruistic as I am, I'm not going to pay for strangers to sit around and blow each other up just for giggles.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#427 - 2014-09-25 18:04:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


I really think you'll find a large number of non CareBorgs using them as well, just for different reasons. They'd actually be pretty handy for certain things.


Thats the fear. Why go hunting for solo pvp when you can push a button to get it?



Because maybe not everyone who uses the dojo will be flying mauraders and other valuable ships knowing full well they are going to blow up? Whereas I am sure they will probably still be in their asteroid belts, complexes, exploration sites.

Solo PvP wont die because the juicy targets making solo PvP worthwhile wont go into dojos and there will still always be bad pilots who make mistakes.

To a degree, incursions are pretty much the same as a dojo, but for PvE (Yes I know you can screw over the fleet, thats why I said to a degree)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#428 - 2014-09-25 18:04:23 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.


Then quit.


I wonder, why are you even here?

You want to change everything about EVE to be just like every other game out there. Why beg and plead to change EVE rather than play those games?


I will answer your question with a question of my own.

Why are you still here? Times, they be-a-changin' , you can clearly see the writing on the wall - CCP is preparing to mainstream the game and sell itself. Your 'gameplay' days are numbered - I can guarantee you they will, one step at a time, remove most of the more unpleasant aspects of the game.

So, why are YOU still here, rather then on kickstarter trying to start up a True Sandbox game of some kind?


Because EVE is still EVE and I will continue to fight to keep EVE from turning into a clone of all of those other failed MMOS.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#429 - 2014-09-25 18:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Jenn aSide wrote:
allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp".

So, if those battles were in some ingame virtual reality you'd be happier?
Cause that wouldn't be in space.

But then we wouldn't have ships/modules blowing up, Dojos and their suppliers blown up, ...
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#430 - 2014-09-25 18:05:17 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:



Except you're wrong, this is a sandbox people don't even have to shoot other people.

For example if people in nullsec stopped shooting each others it wouldn't make eve less of a sandbox, ironically it's the exact opposite.
CCP introduced consensual pvp with stuff like NEO and the AT, and players were already making videos of solo pvp recording their good fights.

Too bad you don't like it.


It's like talking to someone who doesn't speak english. I just don't understand where any of this comes from, it's jibberish, when di d i say anything about having to shoot someone?
Noriko Mai
#431 - 2014-09-25 18:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sierra Payne wrote:


True, you could keep it off TQ but only if CCP allows for direct character copying through an interface. I've bought a toon weeks ago and it still hasn't shown up on SiSi for me. This is an issue that needs resolving. Aside of that I think SiSi or Duality wouldn't be the best choices for this functionality purely due to the nature of these servers as being "test" servers.



the fact that they are test servers is exactly why this is a place for them. test your fits and your skills

WRONG. Test servers are for testing new releases. We are just lucky that we can test our fits and skill there... you and your "facts"...

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#432 - 2014-09-25 18:09:17 UTC
Sephira Galamore wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp".

So, if those battles were in some ingame virtual reality you'd be happier?
Cause that wouldn't be in space.

But then we wouldn't have ships/modules blowing up, Dojos and their suppliers blown up, ...


To me "simulators" are stupid too when you can just go to singularity to try stuff out and practice. I am saying that "simulators" (while stupid) would be better than "unprobable ships in space on tranquility".

Every ship in space (except the ships of true noob in a noob system) must be subject to unwanted interaction. That's a core principle of this video game and should not be violated without extremely good cause (protecting truly new noobs is a good cause for an exception, At and NEO are other good exceptions because they are special events only).
Marc Durant
#433 - 2014-09-25 18:10:31 UTC
mynnna wrote:
If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.


e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open?



Tournament is something entirely different and even bringing that up as an argument shows your agenda. New Eden Open should be, and is, susceptible to interference. This is a sandbox, we don't need more arbitrary rules and boundaries created by game mechanics, we don't need this stuff.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#434 - 2014-09-25 18:10:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
baltec1 wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.


Then quit.


I wonder, why are you even here?

You want to change everything about EVE to be just like every other game out there. Why beg and plead to change EVE rather than play those games?


I will answer your question with a question of my own.

Why are you still here? Times, they be-a-changin' , you can clearly see the writing on the wall - CCP is preparing to mainstream the game and sell itself. Your 'gameplay' days are numbered - I can guarantee you they will, one step at a time, remove most of the more unpleasant aspects of the game.

So, why are YOU still here, rather then on kickstarter trying to start up a True Sandbox game of some kind?


Because EVE is still EVE and I will continue to fight to keep EVE from turning into a clone of all of those other failed MMOS.

I don't remotely echo the sentiments of those who are being aggressive in their arguments about this on either side. Just quoting on this one to say that I haven't experienced the games you are using to reference how this would all go downhill, which may be why I'm having trouble seeing your point.

Well, actually I see your point, I just don't agree that it would be inevitable if handled correctly.

I still feel that people who might be tempted to keep spending money for the privilege of fighting in an arena all the time are not likely to be people you would have an opportunity to shoot in space... unless you shoot them while they are earning money... which is one thing they'd still have to do to play in the arena.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#435 - 2014-09-25 18:11:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Because EVE is still EVE and I will continue to fight to keep EVE from turning into a clone of all of those other failed MMOS.


"If you don't agree with me eve will die"

I seriously hope CCP is tired of listening to people like you, you don't bring content to the game everything you do is for your own amusement, but when people try to have fun too you start crying.

People love the AT, people love NEO, deal with it.

Thank you CCP for giving solo/competitive pvpers a way to bring more content to eve, eve shouldn't be only about big blobs pressing f1 (this is the gameplay baltec 1 promote).

I have a Ph.D
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#436 - 2014-09-25 18:11:40 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Fair points, and I would agree with you if the pilots were getting any reward out of arenas... or if EVE were a simpler game to learn combat in... but neither are true.
So the people who are out roaming are going to be people looking for rewards, or to attain objectives other than PvP. Sounds great.

Ranger 1 wrote:
Also consider that "someone" has to foot the bill for the arena itself and pay for stocking it with ships and modules. That in itself is going to be a detriment to people just living in the arena.

If I put one up you can be certain that only pilots I invite would be allowed access, and there would be a point to the matches. As altruistic as I am, I'm not going to pay for strangers to sit around and blow each other up just for giggles.
You might not, but others will. Crazier things have happened.

Actually that link brings up an interesting question, if/when arenas are added: Who will get more money donated to them, the group who uses it to fund non-consensual PvP or the group who uses it to fund consensual PvP?

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#437 - 2014-09-25 18:12:57 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
mynnna wrote:
If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.


e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open?



Tournament is something entirely different and even bringing that up as an argument shows your agenda. New Eden Open should be, and is, susceptible to interference. This is a sandbox, we don't need more arbitrary rules and boundaries created by game mechanics, we don't need this stuff.


Then I should be able to kill you and destroy your assets in station, and also have access to your api and find your alts because this is a sandbox and we don't need arbitrary rules.

I have a Ph.D
Arrendis
TK Corp
#438 - 2014-09-25 18:14:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Stuff


Baltec, dude, you know I love you and work hard to keep your megas alive, even in Tengu and Harpy fleets, so lemme just ask you this:

How's this different from POSgunning when a fleet shows up to RF a tower?

The gunner can't be killed. His ship can't be damaged. All he needs to do is safe logoff after the POS goes into RF, and until then, collect any kills he wants.

The dojo can be RF'd. The assets in space can be destroyed. The only thing that can't be a guaranteed 'it's dead, jim', is the pod, because the guys inside aren't there when they're not fighting. So where's the difference between these guys, and the solo POSgunner?

I mean, personally, I see this as a step up from people going to Sisi to duel - people going to Sisi, you can't cause them meaningful harm on Tranq, and they don't even lose any assets. Here, at least it's costing someone money just to do it, right? And you can RF the dojo, even if you can't warp into the deadspace pocket 'inside', so you can screw with their future fights preemptively.
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#439 - 2014-09-25 18:14:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ruric Thyase wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


i get it, i really do. you don't care about what EVE is.

Well, i do, sorry.


I care a lot about what EVE is, but more importantly I care a lot more about giving people options to play this game that are fun for them because a sandbox is not only about being able to do anything you want anytime you want, but also about being able to pursue the options of HOW you want to do things and I feel like these dojos offer an alternative to HOW people pursue 1v1 combat, but they are still about to do so anytime, anywhere. It's hard to see how that is as big of a violation as you make it out to be.

Oh, and I forgive you.

I am sorry how easy it is to misconstrue a genuine belief that game developers in a unique game such as this would actually care enough about their players to do the work they do. How silly for me trust in them enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and the understanding that they come from good intentions when they test new material.

Please forgive me.


Good intentions have ruined many a game. SMART intentions are what's called for. Violating a core principal of your game (even in a smallish way) is not smart.


I found that "Core Principal" you keep going on and on about, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I couldn't find anything to do with unconditional PvP.

http://www.ccpgames.com/en/company/about-us

But I did look into EVE Online and found this:
http://www.ccpgames.com/en/products/eve-online

"**instancing
Similar to sharding but deployed on smaller content segment, like a dungeon. Two different parties of players appear to enter the same dungeon but do not see each other, as they are in their own dungeon (instanced space) and cannot interact with the other party. Makers of virtual worlds often deploy instancing to manage access to popular content and limit crowding. EVE Online does neither."

1) You are not entering the same "Dungeon" (ie Deadspace pocket) when you use the dojo
2) When in the deadspace pocket, you interact with the pilot you are fighting
3) Everyone can still interact (ie destroy, hack, rf) with the dojo
4) limit crowding does not appear to be any reasoning behind a dojo

So I will admit the only one that smells of EVE 'betraying its core' (based on their language) is using instancing to manage access to popular content. Even then I think Falcon could come up with a way to explain it.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#440 - 2014-09-25 18:15:01 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
mynnna wrote:
If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.


e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open?



Tournament is something entirely different and even bringing that up as an argument shows your agenda. New Eden Open should be, and is, susceptible to interference. This is a sandbox, we don't need more arbitrary rules and boundaries created by game mechanics, we don't need this stuff.

No, it is not subject to interference....also, there would be a reason for that.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.