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Titan fair to bump or not?

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Drakan290
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2014-09-23 21:44:56 UTC
I too find the lack of CSM interest bothersome, even a ''Hey, we see how this sucks''.

Aglon did what anyone else would do. Titan was vulnerable due to pilot error, and he took the opportunity presented. This heavy handed banning is ridiculous, and should be addressed ASAP.
Bob TSlob
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-09-23 22:14:33 UTC
The way I see it, we have 2 major problems. I would like to address them separately.

1- The rules regarding this bump are unclear. While CCP has announced that bumping ships inside a pos wiothout a password is bannable, this titan appears outside the pos. If a ship is considered inside a pos when it's model appears outside, then this needs to be clarified and the game mechanics need to be fixed. A perma ban for unenforced, unclear rules is absurd IMHO

2- The enforcement of this rule is very biased the way I see it. This pilot has been perma banned yet in other recent titan pos bumping activities I have not heard of a single punishment. In NCdot's recent kill that seems to meet the same exploit criterea I have not heard of a single pilot being banned. If the rules are to be forced fairly, shouldn't every pilot who exploits be punished the same? If our tornado jockey stays banned but the entire NCdot titan fleet that performed a similar exploit go unbanned, I will see this as BOB mk 1 era favoratism.
Morrigan Malkavian
Malkavian Inc.
#43 - 2014-09-23 22:24:08 UTC
just curious is there a certain percentage of the ship that has to stick out of the shields to make it fair gain or can I just have it touch the shields for me to get crying right when it's get shot.

Also am I to understand that only npc ships can freely engage any target anywhere, or can I get the serpentis belt rats banned for harressment?

maybe something silly but it seems to me that if you wish to change a certain behavior it helps to explain what it is you wish to change, not just ban and make a guessing game out of the reason.
Amaya Rei
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-09-23 22:38:43 UTC
Morrigan Malkavian wrote:
just curious is there a certain percentage of the ship that has to stick out of the shields to make it fair gain or can I just have it touch the shields for me to get crying right when it's get shot.

Also am I to understand that only npc ships can freely engage any target anywhere, or can I get the serpentis belt rats banned for harressment?

maybe something silly but it seems to me that if you wish to change a certain behavior it helps to explain what it is you wish to change, not just ban and make a guessing game out of the reason.


That is what everyone is trying to convey to CCP, their "official" statement is:

"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit."

1) Please define "within"
2) Do parts that hang out, that players CAN interact with as allowed by the game engine count as "within"
3) Is it "within" if its not lockable, and "outside" if it is lockable?

There is no clear definition that a player can use as a reference to know if he is playing in the "sandbox" the way CCP wants them to play.

So in this case, a titan hanging out of the POS shield, which can be interacted with (and doesn't need a password) because on the client side its exposed, and bumpable, somehow falls under this rule? And gets a player perma banned...

what a joke.
Heavenseed
Penumbra Institute
#45 - 2014-09-23 22:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Heavenseed
I agree with most of posters wrote above. The permanent ban is quite ridiculous and harsh, those reasons behind it is unclear. Also this whole affair is kinda ruining 'sand-box' nature of this game. How can we create content in this game, if some developers or gms ban the actions of a capsuleer with unclear reasons?
Ariada Valentine
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-09-23 23:58:15 UTC
There really needs to be some major clarification on what is an exploit and what is allowed when it comes to bumping at POSs. The lack of consistency on these type of rulings is troubling.
Centurion Utama
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-09-24 02:31:20 UTC
I don't even know the pilot in question but I do have to agree with pretty much all the previous posters, the way the rules are being used arbitrarily to punish one pilot whereas another group used an obvious exploit yet none of their pilots were banned. I say revoke the permaban of Aglon and there should be a recognized and set decision on what consists of legitimate and illegitimate bumping of ships within the region of a POS. Otherwise arbitrary decisions like this may set a precedent that may lead to a mass exodus of all pilots who are not able to fly a titan because they see that they are treated as second class citizen compared to those who are able to. Those who are able to seem to be viewed as somehow special and granted special powers it seems compared to the rest of us. They are able to light a cyno right next to a post and jump dozens of their ships in knowing that the game will cause some of them to spawn inside the shields before being ping ponged out and thus bowling a ship that is fully inside the shields out and suffering absolutely no punitive punishments whereas a player without a titan used a legal tactic to get a ship to move in a way that he wanted and yet he is permabanned. Fix this CCP and make a clear statement to players and GMs as to what is considered or is not considered an exploit.
Gfy Trextron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-09-24 02:43:39 UTC
5 days and no word publicly from CCP. Only the original ban and the denial of the first reply to the ban.
No word from the CSM.
The only info that we have in writing is that he was banned because the ship was not lockable. And not a single piece of published information that supports any exploit revolving around ships being lockable.

I understand that we are a small insignificant corp, but this is completely unreasonable in any sense of the term. Currently inside includes outside and banable offence only applies to small groups "when the logs show nothing".
Fellsworn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-09-24 04:02:43 UTC

Everything I've read so far regarding POS bumping does not seem to apply to this situation. Were the opportunity to present itself in this way again i think many people including myself even after hearing of this incident would take the same action.

I agree with most of the other posts here that we need some actual clear information how to play your game CCP without getting the proverbial ban-hammer smack to the nuts.

Its got to be bad for business to have conflicting rules that can be loosly interpreted by a GM with the authority to drop the banhammer. In this situation it seems to have been done without much thought, and that is troubling. Please explain.



JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman
#50 - 2014-09-24 06:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: JIeoH Mocc
Kazruw Drol wrote:
[ The GMs can still of course ban you for it, because the game is a sandbox - their sandbox. ;)


This.

So i suppose it's not the clarification we need, it's the clarification we deserve, meh.
Is it only me or CCP added more words to the notification, but haven't added any more information/sense?
JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman
#51 - 2014-09-24 10:24:38 UTC
Gfy Trextron wrote:
5 days and no word publicly from CCP. Only the original ban and the denial of the first reply to the ban.
No word from the CSM.
The only info that we have in writing is that he was banned because the ship was not lockable. And not a single piece of published information that supports any exploit revolving around ships being lockable.

I understand that we are a small insignificant corp, but this is completely unreasonable in any sense of the term. Currently inside includes outside and banable offence only applies to small groups "when the logs show nothing".


Did you escalate your ticket to a Senior GM? Do it, if you haven't.
Talon Draygo
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-09-24 10:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Talon Draygo
CCP you should be ashamed of yourselves. You built this game based on a sandbox and encouraged its players to think outside the box and find unique ways to kill eachother yet everytime we do and someone cries about it, it is now an exploit and you give some half assed excuse as to why you are nerfing or banning something.

This pilot did what any of us would of done if the situation presented itself so you might as well ban all of us because its a stupid, half defined rule and goes against the spirit of the game itself.

Its time you guys remembered its the players that keeps this game going and money in your pockets so maybe you should show them a bit more care.
Koz Katral
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#53 - 2014-09-24 11:53:59 UTC
I would be interested to hear what the CSM has to say on this absurd and inconsistent permanent ban, considering none of them have seen fit to post on the issue so far.
Hitman 001
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#54 - 2014-09-24 14:13:00 UTC
Koz Katral wrote:
I would be interested to hear what the CSM has to say on this absurd and inconsistent permanent ban, considering none of them have seen fit to post on the issue so far.



same
corebloodbrothers
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-09-24 14:56:00 UTC
first off: GM support tickets are considered private. releasing them is bannable, look at BLINK.

personally i can agree that banning someone without a warning is hard for the people involved. Even the titan pilot bumped expressed the hope that the ban woudl be temporarily.

CCP is fixing in the next release bumping by cyno, and removing stuff from a pos withotu having the password, through which ever means. If u look at other incidents then there is a wide variation in interpretabel rules and actions. from banns, to reimbursting titans, to not doing stuff.

i posted it internally th brign it under attention, but CSM wont take a stand nor pick a side or order CCP nor a GM how to operate, especially not in single cases. we like to look at the mechanism itself and improve eve, so dont interpet my post as a, unbann him ffs.


personally i hope ofc the pilot can enjoy eve again,

goodluck all
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#56 - 2014-09-24 15:10:52 UTC
except this was not a case of bumping by cyno. this was a case of smashing a 100mn mwd tornado into a part of the ship fully exposed from the shield, and pointing it / cynoing in dreads well after fully out of the shield.

the tactic has been used many times before.

all tactics used during this operation will continue to work perfectly fine after the changes CCP are implementing in oceanus.
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-09-24 15:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Eldwinn
corebloodbrothers wrote:

CCP is fixing in the next release bumping by cyno, and removing stuff from a pos withotu having the password, through which ever means. If u look at other incidents then there is a wide variation in interpretabel rules and actions. from banns, to reimbursting titans, to not doing stuff.


Sounds like you didn't really read the post. Algon was banned for bumping a titan outside of the POS shields. The titan was not lockable and he used a 100MN tornado to do it. The Oceanus fixes do nothing for this. This form of bumping will still exist.

The question was,

The player was notified that if the ship is not lockable then it is in the POS. Can someone please show me the rule, post, etc. that states this?

That may have not be worded extremely well, however it gets the point across.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#58 - 2014-09-24 15:45:37 UTC
gj csm
Talon Draygo
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-09-24 16:52:46 UTC
Not to mention the whole if its not lockable its in the pos thing is bullshit. If its sticking out of the shields it should be fair game.
Jazz Caden
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-09-24 18:11:54 UTC
And so the laziness and incompetence continues... All I can say is keep posting and supporting the issue, hopefully if we make enough noise about this CCP will actually take a look at the case and do the right thing.

#FreeAlgon