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Titan fair to bump or not?

First post First post
Author
Gfy Trextron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-09-20 03:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Gfy Trextron
While I was not on for this, it has come to my attention one of our corp members has been perma banned.
With CCP flip flopping over everything I would like an opinion from the elected CSM members. THIS IS NOT ABOUT CYNO BUMPING.

The simple question is, Is this titan fair game to bump?
http://clip2net.com/s/iTZKyX

The nose is clearly out of the pos and doing 0ms.

It was then bumped (by the part out of the shields) out with tornados and killed.

CCP has since returned the titan and permabanned one of our pilots.

If there is a rule about ships out of shields, I would like to see it.
If CCP's logs show something (for the first time ever) outside of my understanding of the events, I would like the CSM to be notified of what they show and posted here.

This way we all have a better understanding of what the CCP rules are (for today) on this issue.

Gfy "goofy"
Soul Takers CEO

After some thought (and sleep), I came up with another possibility leading to another question. Is it possible that the titan could have bounced the high velocity tornado through the pos shields after one of the bumps? How would that be read by the logs? I would then argue that a player/ship with proper permissions caused a player without to enter the POS in a circumstance out of his control.

It may seem like I am reaching here but we simply do not understand why this was not a fair bump.

UPDATE EDIT: The player was notified that if the ship is not lockable then it is in the POS. Can someone please show me the rule, post, etc. that states this?

Final EDIT: Reduced to 30 day ban, then 7 day ban. CCP reply page 8.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#2 - 2014-09-20 03:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
bumping stuff which is inside the forcefield is seen as an exploit AFAIR. There should be a GM response to this topic in this forum somewhere (1 year ago or so).

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

itiniti
Sons of Black Rise
Siege Green.
#3 - 2014-09-20 09:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: itiniti
The rules have been notoriously unclear regarding this, with most members believing partially exposed titans being fair game. I have seen several players requesting CCP to make an additional post to clear the situation out, but I have not seen any official responses. To get permabanned in this manner, under these circumstances, must be an error, and I hope the situation can be resolved happily.
Zion Maldor
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-09-20 15:29:15 UTC
I believe it is unfortunate that CCP take the approach of Perma-Ban and ask questions after. The format of "you are perma-banned unless you would like to respond to us" seems silly. It's as if every engagement must be fraps'd in case you have to go back and prove you weren't breaking today's rule. Suddenly we are like the police and have to video record everything? Silly. There needs to be a better process.

- Zion
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2014-09-20 17:40:14 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
bumping stuff which is inside the forcefield is seen as an exploit AFAIR. There should be a GM response to this topic in this forum somewhere (1 year ago or so).



The part bumped wasn't inside the forcefield and was able to be interacted with, multiple titans have been killed by this method due to going too far out of the shield and being bumped further, this is completely different to what you're referring to where titans were being bumped while fully inside

A perma ban for this and the reimbursement of a titan lost due to the pilots mistake is crazy.
Tirelion
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2014-09-20 19:05:35 UTC
This should, in no way, be seen as an "exploit" bump. It is tragic that, an irresponsible titan pilot, who had obviously left himself vulnerable, should be reimbursed and that a player should be permabanned for what should have been a legal bump using a Tornado. CCP has, at this point, completely removed any element of risk to owning a "POS titan", which is counter to the spirit of the game as we know it. If this kill was not a "legal" kill, then EVERYONE must know that they cannot, EVER, try and touch a titan in a pos in any way that would lead to it's destruction (unless it is an Awox apparently). Even if the Titan (or any ship for that matter) is sticking out of the shields. This along with the new change to cynoing on a tower will make having a titan in lowsec absolutely risk free. That's really just what we need (#sarcasm).
Marsha Mallow
#7 - 2014-09-20 22:22:20 UTC
The playerbase have been roaring over the POS bumping issue as a potential exploit for weeks with no response from CCP.

For some reason you've now decided to address it, badly.

Instead of acknowledging that there was an issue - and that ignoring it was an error - you've chosen to perma-ban someone who was likely acting in good faith based on current mechanics. If you are going to mix this kill in with the other (two?) TitanPosBumped kills when it is clearly not in the same bracket, I'd like to see the list of other people perma-banned.

You don't have to accept eyewitness accounts, or 3rd party vids, but you could engage a shred of common sense and a bit of decency when dealing with these issues. Seriously, this is a grossly unfair punishment directed at the wrong individual(s).

Please stop retrospectively permabanning people for flawed gameplay mechanics which are strenuously reported - then ignored.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Sly Ship
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-09-21 00:22:55 UTC
I would love to hear from the developers how anyone would have know that bumping a ship sitting outside of a POS would be considered an exploit. I fully expect CCP to make this right.
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-09-21 00:23:44 UTC
In regard to this particular thread Nulli seems to have taken this issue and went on a parade with this. It is a bit of an insult that they go out in public and wave around their new titan. The link to their thread . It is of course in Japanese. You will need to translate that of course.
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-09-21 15:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Eldwinn
*snip*
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#11 - 2014-09-21 19:00:32 UTC
W0wbagger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
bumping stuff which is inside the forcefield is seen as an exploit AFAIR. There should be a GM response to this topic in this forum somewhere (1 year ago or so).



The part bumped wasn't inside the forcefield and was able to be interacted with, multiple titans have been killed by this method due to going too far out of the shield and being bumped further, this is completely different to what you're referring to where titans were being bumped while fully inside

A perma ban for this and the reimbursement of a titan lost due to the pilots mistake is crazy.


it all depends how CCP defines "inside the forcefield". Is it "you can not lock it" = inside? Ship center inside = inside? Everything inside = inside? I don't know.

I only posted what i think was the last official GM response on the topic.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-09-21 22:02:31 UTC
Bienator II wrote:


it all depends how CCP defines "inside the forcefield". Is it "you can not lock it" = inside? Ship center inside = inside? Everything inside = inside? I don't know.

I only posted what i think was the last official GM response on the topic.


The problem is this information flips all the time. One GM will say someone else and another GM will say something against what the other GM just said.
Koz Katral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-09-21 22:21:28 UTC
Do the GM's even play this game and understand how it works?

How can one pilot receive a perma ban for what has been regarded as a legitimate tactic for the longest time, when the pilots performing the actual exploit elsewhere walk away unpunished?

Pretty sloppy work from the GM team at the very least.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-09-21 23:33:48 UTC
So, bumping titans which are completely inside the POS shield by means of a mass super jump to a nearby cyno is ok, but bumping one left sticking out of the shield is permabannable offense??
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while.
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-09-22 02:08:21 UTC
It doesn't fit within the spirit of the "sandbox" style of this game for a ship that has several KM sticking out of a force field to be not bumpable. If the player in question had of used some sort of hack or had even been within the forcefield like they said maybe I would feel different.

Also to permanently ban someone that has spent years training a character over a rule that is not well known or known at all is outrageous.

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath

raging star
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-09-22 05:15:28 UTC
Gfy Trextron wrote:
While I was not on for this, it has come to my attention one of our corp members has been perma banned.
With CCP flip flopping over everything I would like an opinion from the elected CSM members. THIS IS NOT ABOUT CYNO BUMPING.

The simple question is, Is this titan fair game to bump?
http://clip2net.com/s/iTZKyX

The nose is clearly out of the pos and doing 0ms.

It was then bumped (by the part out of the shields) out with tornados and killed.

CCP has since returned the titan and permabanned one of our pilots.

If there is a rule about ships out of shields, I would like to see it.
If CCP's logs show something (for the first time ever) outside of my understanding of the events, I would like the CSM to be notified of what they show and posted here.

This way we all have a better understanding of what the CCP rules are (for today) on this issue.

Gfy "goofy"
Soul Takers CEO

After some thought (and sleep), I came up with another possibility leading to another question. Is it possible that the titan could have bounced the high velocity tornado through the pos shields after one of the bumps? How would that be read by the logs? I would then argue that a player/ship with proper permissions caused a player without to enter the POS in a circumstance out of his control.

It may seem like I am reaching here but we simply do not understand why this was not a fair bump.

UPDATE EDIT: The player was notified that if the ship is not lockable then it is in the POS. Can someone please show me the rule, post, etc. that states this?



If i had being flying around and seen said titan, i would have thought it was fair game. I think ccp got this one wrong and said player should have never being band for his actions.
Maccian
Soul Takers
Pen Is Out
#17 - 2014-09-22 05:17:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maccian
Quote:
Suspension and Ban Policy

1. EXPLOITS

An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if:

a. Investigation shows that a player has employed the use of an exploit tactic despite a public announcement being made to alert players they will be banned for using it.
b. A player who has been previously warned for exploiting and continues to exploit, whether using the same exploit or another.
c. An account holder guilty of employing “duping” exploits. Players found to have received the benefits of this exploit may also face reprimand, from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts.
d. A player has engaged in activity that intentionally causes others to lose connection, suffer latency issues (lag) or to crash to desktop (CTD).
e. A player renders himself invulnerable through the use of a bug.
f. A player has created, distributed or advertised an illegal 3rd party program (i.e. macro or cheat program) that disrupts game mechanics, is considered unfriendly or gives an unfair advantage by misusing game features in a way for which they were not intended.


When and where was the public announcement made that this was an exploit and would result in a ban?Oops

Please reconsider and revoke the ban on Aglon's account, extremely harsh and seems to have come out the blue.
Hitman 001
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2014-09-22 09:56:11 UTC
i call this BS. Are the NC. guys baned for using the cyno and titans to bump the titan out? no. so what the actual f...
Detalist
Soul Takers
Pen Is Out
#19 - 2014-09-22 13:01:19 UTC
I have now had 4 groups of people we shoot at regularly (people with a legit interest in there being one less of us) convo me to say aglon got an unfair deal- fix this CCP.
Vulfen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-09-22 14:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulfen
CCP have really over reacted on this but because this isnt a big 0.0 aliance Shadow Cartel & Soul takers are unlikely to get any luck.

I'm with them on this the titan sticking out like that is fair game to bump. If you can't safely park your titan in a Large POS then you really shouldn't be flying one in the first place.

CCP need to reinstate the account of Aglon. And provide clearer clarification on the rules.
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