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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1921 - 2014-09-15 14:43:01 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
If you have scanned a fresh hole, jumped in, and do not see any probes on scan. There is next to zero risk in rolling as long as the situations doesn't change. The risks were not balanced befor Hyperion. The guys who got their caps and HIC to the wormhole first, could dictate the engagement. Nine times out of ten, when you jumped a cap you appeared in jump range on the other side. Yes we replace all ships that are lost during an official operation. However, we would not cover the cost of your stupidity, should you decide to roll a hole that has been open for 16 hours or you see probes on scan. Contact one of our diplomats if you would like to know more.


Heh, I didn't mean do you replace all your ships. Will you replace mine if I roll a fresh wh and it goes bad? I was just kidding about that part.


Risks pre hyperion:

Roller- 100% of rolling ships were at risk the second they entered warp to a wh.
Ganker- 0% if you chose not to engage up to 100% if you chose to go all in.

Risks post hyper:

Roller - same 100% for the same reasons
Ganker - pretty much 0%. Assuming the ganking fleet can tackle, web and bump a rolling ship that spawns out of jump range.

This is for wh rolling. Jumping in w/ a fleet for pvp is a whole different discussion and a whole different set of risks. Every point/bubble the roller brings through the wh adds risk to the ganking fleet. I'm assuming a rolling fleet is just rolling and that an unpointed ship will have the sense to warp away before it gets popped.

And to expand on my jelly bean theme. I don't want a fix or a work around for this. I want a roll back. That's me and what I want. I'm ok w/ other folks having other views. I'm NOT ok with folks not understanding and miss representing what the actual risks are. There are a lot of folks breaking this down incorrectly and putting it out as fact. Just trying to keep it clear.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1922 - 2014-09-15 15:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I don't think you're gonna get a rollback so you shouldn't waste your time asking for one.

I don't think your risk evaluation is remotely correct if we're talking about rolling a c5. Pre hyperion, when were you ever at risk rolling a fresh hole? ...assuming you had no hostile holes already in your system and there wasn't a t3 fleet with cap support waiting for you on the hole.

If we were unsure if a carrier trap had been set, we would simply jump the orca first to see the hole reduced. Granted the orca would probably die but at least the carrier was safe. This is just one of the many things you could do to mitigate the risk.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Scrubnbubble
If we die it's lag
#1923 - 2014-09-15 16:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Scrubnbubble
Mass-Based Spawn Distance needs to go for multiple reasons, not just rolling holes.

Most people fly covert ops in WH space, it used to be that you ran a risk going through a hole and spawning too close to it to cloak up. Now there is NO risk as you're always placed far enough away where you can cloak up and easily maneuver through anyone camping the other side. We've missed multiple kills so far due to this, and we've been able to safely live due to this. No fights were had, no one died.

Rolling holes is harder. Not that big of a deal for the large corps, but I think this REALLY effects the small corps (like us). Yeah you can try and close a hole quickly once you open your fresh static. But you alienate the small corps which I would say makes up the majority of WH space by not allowing them to manage their own space like they previously have been able to do. We had a C4 spawn into our hole and the corp tried to close the hole. They brought in two BS, we had our hic ready. We caught both of them in the bubble but they were SO FAR APART from each other we could only manage to get point on one before the other one burned 3KM out of the hic bubble and got away. I mean, when they went through the hole they were like 40KM away from each other. If this was pre hyperion they would of been forced to fight and bring in reinforcements to save the ships (which they had). But instead, they let one die so they could get the other one out.

And the worst thing this has done is change the WH culture that everyone is used to and loves. WH space is known for it's close combat brawling on holes, that's what people love, that's what people skilled up for. In trying to fix "rage rolling" which really isn't that big of a deal (imo) CCP changed the culture in a big way that the community DOES NOT LIKE. You're lucky if you can get a fight on a hole. It's EASY to get away. And you've screwed the little guys in the process by not allowing them to manage their own space. CCP has turned WH space into Null with no local, literally, that's just about what it is now.
Gunner GzR
Air
The Initiative.
#1924 - 2014-09-16 01:24:09 UTC
Scrubnbubble wrote:
Mass-Based Spawn Distance needs to go for multiple reasons, not just rolling holes.

Most people fly covert ops in WH space, it used to be that you ran a risk going through a hole and spawning too close to it to cloak up. Now there is NO risk as you're always placed far enough away where you can cloak up and easily maneuver through anyone camping the other side. We've missed multiple kills so far due to this, and we've been able to safely live due to this. No fights were had, no one died.

Rolling holes is harder. Not that big of a deal for the large corps, but I think this REALLY effects the small corps (like us). Yeah you can try and close a hole quickly once you open your fresh static. But you alienate the small corps which I would say makes up the majority of WH space by not allowing them to manage their own space like they previously have been able to do. We had a C4 spawn into our hole and the corp tried to close the hole. They brought in two BS, we had our hic ready. We caught both of them in the bubble but they were SO FAR APART from each other we could only manage to get point on one before the other one burned 3KM out of the hic bubble and got away. I mean, when they went through the hole they were like 40KM away from each other. If this was pre hyperion they would of been forced to fight and bring in reinforcements to save the ships (which they had). But instead, they let one die so they could get the other one out.

And the worst thing this has done is change the WH culture that everyone is used to and loves. WH space is known for it's close combat brawling on holes, that's what people love, that's what people skilled up for. In trying to fix "rage rolling" which really isn't that big of a deal (imo) CCP changed the culture in a big way that the community DOES NOT LIKE. You're lucky if you can get a fight on a hole. It's EASY to get away. And you've screwed the little guys in the process by not allowing them to manage their own space. CCP has turned WH space into Null with no local, literally, that's just about what it is now.



Agree and second

Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
Firefox4312 Yatolila
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1925 - 2014-09-16 06:21:43 UTC
97 pages later, and almost 2000 posts later. You would think CCP might take into account everything, but they wont. :(

Guess WHs are ****** for the time being until CCP decides to listen to people.
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#1926 - 2014-09-16 16:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rei Moon
Meh.
Rolling for isk takes too much time...
Aren't we supposed to make isk to buy ships and lose them in a blaze of glory?
Now we'll be so poor, we'll have to pew in fw frigs ;)

Edit: typo

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Jack Branigan
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#1927 - 2014-09-17 13:20:36 UTC
Firefox4312 Yatolila wrote:
97 pages later, and almost 2000 posts later. You would think CCP might take into account everything, but they wont. :(

Guess WHs are ****** for the time being until CCP decides to listen to people.


Good to see that CCP is taking the approach of "hey maybe if we just say nothing they will get bored and will stop posting eventually..."
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1928 - 2014-09-17 13:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffi Flaffi
Unfortunately it became quiet in this thread, but guess most of the wormhole comunicty is mature enough to not just cry and repeat the same things again and again.

So far we as a small corp in a low-class wormhole have adapted to the changes, which means honestly less activity overall (including offlining towers so far) and some even ask if we shall abondon the wormhole completely, but with the remaining activity we can live as we have alts for playing in Hi and LowSec when we can't do anything interesting in the wormholes. Yes, we just sit there in CovOps and wait, because as a small Group we can not / don't want to watch 5+ wormholes at the same time, so we only do PvE stuff when we have max. 3 wormholes. And we as well don't want to scann 2 hours of our online timer for scanning down the whole chain and finding most of the time nothing or people hiding behind POS / Cloaks as soon as a new signature pops up. Yes a lot of people became more paranoid is what I tend to see.
And PvP Stuff has become less, even those daytrippers from HiSec are less than before as a lot of low-class (C1-C3) wormholes are full of anomalies and signatures, doesn't matter if there are online Towers or in many cases no online towers at all.

We even had killed some ships due to the new wormhole-mass-based-spawndistance Thing, because they just had no Chance. But it was just camping some Hi-Sec Exits in corresponding ships (insta-lock+some dps). But that was not funny, more a waste of time due to be bored like hell in our home-wh. It's even more boring than a Gate camp of a well frequented K-Space-Jumpgate. Will not continue that stuff and I am sure most of the killed guys will not get back to wormholes if that was their first step into the wormholes. I'm quite sure It's defenitely not the Kind of conflict WH comunity is looking for, because in that case we would live in k-space.
And on weekend we found a wormhole with an exit just 2 jumps from Jita and in some hours we had not even one visitor, even though there have been probes nearly all the time in the hi-sec System (yes they changed ;) ). That's not common compared to what I have seen the last 2 years!

Rei Moon wrote:
Meh.
Rolling for isk takes too much time...
1) Aren't we supposed to make isk to buy ships and lose them in a blaze of glory?
2) Now we'll be so poor, we'll have to pew in fw frigs ;)


1) No! We are supposed to earn less ISK and pay more USD/EUR, i.e. buying more Plex and founding our ships to loose that way. CCP is on a good way to pay to win at the moment. Now you may wonder, why they want to see more People in 0.0 doing PvE. That's just the first step of a bigger plan they have for I don't know mid-term or long-term future and the majority of non-0.0-players are probably not aware of. I as well just heared more or less a small piece of Information, because I just don't care about 0.0.

2) Not according to CCP, but that's the back door they leave intentionally or not open for those who just don't buy Plex with real money maybe, so they can at least fight in frigs. But I think that was not the Point of the frig wormholes. They were 99% designed for a specific 0.0 block maybe?!?

I at least would appreciate to read in this thread sooner or later from a Dev what their conclusion is some weeks after releasing the patch. Do they just read and ignore (which seems to be the case) or do they plan some changes on the wormhole-patches?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1929 - 2014-09-17 17:01:06 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I don't think you're gonna get a rollback so you shouldn't waste your time asking for one.

I don't think your risk evaluation is remotely correct if we're talking about rolling a c5. Pre hyperion, when were you ever at risk rolling a fresh hole? ...assuming you had no hostile holes already in your system and there wasn't a t3 fleet with cap support waiting for you on the hole.

If we were unsure if a carrier trap had been set, we would simply jump the orca first to see the hole reduced. Granted the orca would probably die but at least the carrier was safe. This is just one of the many things you could do to mitigate the risk.



So you're pointing out I wasn't at risk rolling a wh, but then putting the following disclaimers:
1. fresh wh
2. no other hostile wh in your system
3. there wasn't a t3 w/ cap support waiting on the other side

Um... ok you're right and I'm wrong????



(I put on my Captain Obvious costume)

You are safe when you are not in danger.

(I bow to the crowed after awakening them to this astonishing fact)


I'm not going to argue back and forth. I'll summarize my thoughts and leave it at that. Pre hyperion rolling mechanics where fine and created many many fine fights. It's one of the foundations of wh living that made it a great place to play space pilots in space. Now we're on page 90 something of the second thread that proclaims the change is teh suxors. We can't all be wrong. I choose to not accept what is bad. I choose to not attempt to meet a bad change half way with some screwy compromise. It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it. That's pretty much all there is to say about it.
Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1930 - 2014-09-17 18:58:05 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
Tiger Tesla
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1931 - 2014-09-17 20:09:01 UTC
Enthropic wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1932 - 2014-09-17 21:03:36 UTC
Fozzie releases a devblog touting their wonderful job with burner missions, and not a peep about wormholes, nor any recent DEV responses that are constructive.

CCP wants us to post constructive feedback? Fine. But you also have to post something constructive; something other than "we are watching" because that is not constructive either.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1933 - 2014-09-17 23:53:52 UTC
Tiger Tesla wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.



There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Scrubnbubble
If we die it's lag
#1934 - 2014-09-18 00:56:31 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tiger Tesla wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
God Arthie
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#1935 - 2014-09-18 07:39:43 UTC
Scrubnbubble wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tiger Tesla wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#1936 - 2014-09-18 08:59:00 UTC
Scrubnbubble wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tiger Tesla wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.





"You can only quote 5 times in a single post." Damnit!
LastRound
The Not Elite Four
#1937 - 2014-09-18 15:15:50 UTC
Jessica Duranin wrote:

"You can only quote 5 times in a single post." Damnit!
Scrubnbubble
If we die it's lag
#1938 - 2014-09-18 17:01:40 UTC
LastRound wrote:
Jessica Duranin wrote:

"You can only quote 5 times in a single post." Damnit!
Tiger Tesla
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1939 - 2014-09-20 16:38:14 UTC
I really wish that CCP would acknowledge the wormhole community with something. It has been over two weeks since Fozzie has said anything to the wormhole community, and in that time he has made 11 posts in the features and ideas section to work on the next update.

CCP Fozzie, please don't simply move on to the next update. There is a tight nit community that wants to know what CCP thinks about how the changes are effecting wormhole life. And the last thing you said to us is that we are not being ignored. I hope that the summit will help shed light on how these changes affect active wormholers.

The main problem isn't even the changes, it is how the community has been treated.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1940 - 2014-09-20 16:57:58 UTC
Are you guys seriously still going on about this? :D

This change was just fine, and accomplished exactly what CCP intended- making farmers less willing to seal their farmholes.

Everyone else is unaffected.