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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1881 - 2014-09-09 16:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.

Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes.
I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.

thanks



Pretty simple equation.

If the data supported that this change did not negatively affect wornhole population and participation, CCP would be pumping out all kinds of data trumpeting how wonderful this change was, regardless of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

But they have not. Does not take a genius to know why not.


Lets just be a little realistic here, changes went in , some or particuarly one change raised the concerns of almost the entirety of wormhole space, who said to a man, "this is wrong and in combination with the other changes will have negative effects" ( possibly more stongly said).

Now when the figures start coming in showing that was actually correct, would one expect anyone to say, "here guys, You were right, and I was a complete muppet?"

No, human nature will ensure that they wish to be sure of that, and to try to understand why they were so wrong.
They acted according to their best abilities and beliefs, if the starting assumptions are wrong, then the rest cannot succeed.

Whoever advised them that the mass spawn suggestion was a good idea, has a great deal to answer for, he played CCP and the wormhole community for fools.
Hopefully it was just a matter or ignorance or lack of thought and not malice. Because it would have taken a particular brand of crazy for a wormholer to think it was a good idea, for more than the first sugar rush of losses from those who did not read devblogs and died, and to furthermore think that the unending outrage from the community and damage to the relationship would ever be worthwhile.

So.
They will make the new changes to undo the damage. And retain face by distraction or introducing something completely different, saying this was their plan all along and the changes were just a preparation and no longer needed.
Hopefully this will happen swiftly, as any who leave, are unlikely to return, we want more players of all types in wormholes, hopefully something to attract people will come soon.
I believe that CCP have their own, their companies, and their players interests at heart.

We have all seen activity in wormholes decrease over the last year, it is clear as day, the number of empty systems that once had inhabitants and were full of life, now with only dead sticks left behind.

They obviously thought Hyperion would help things recover, they must have seen this data, in what form, and how granular, only they know, we will never know exactly how many left, we do not need to.

All we want is more life, more inhabitants, more to shoot, and more to be shot at by, and the ability for wormhole space residents in all areas to be able to finance their life, and losses within wormhole space, but sadly their changes are having exactly the opposite effect.

This will not be ignored as it is in their, and our best interests together to resolve.

When the metrics are clear and they NEED hard data, they will find some way, any way to rectify this, hopefully they will listen to Corbexx, he seems to have a very good and clear understanding of the issues and the cure.

This forum also contains a great deal of experienced talented players with good suggestions. (Ignoring the usual suspects who have as much of an idea about wormhole mechanics, as a flatworm has of multidimentional physics.)

Apart from them, I really cannot see a GRR Goons in this although they certainly benefit where wormholers don't, just not enough for it to be deliberate other than just messing with peoples heads and causing grief. But either way, this expansion will not remain unchanged, as any figures will just confirm how it fails in it's goal.

So CCP please roll back the mass random spawn mechanic at the earliest possible opportunity, as this is the most egregious, and then there is the possibility to balance the others and move on.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1882 - 2014-09-09 16:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
I don't think wh activity has gone down over the last year (last 2 months is another story). I think c5/c6 activity went down over the past year. I think the big fish chased a lot of the little fish into the shallows so to speak. A lot of guys I know went low class because that's where the fun was for them.

I also think that there are a few large wh groups that are a lot more forum vocal than the smaller groups, so their message gets out a lot more.

I would think the real metric that most of us are interested in seeing is the pvp losses in wh graphed out over time from the beginning of wh to the end. I think it would be pretty easy to pull that out of the server.

Another interesting set of graphs would be active FF in wh from the beginning until now. This one I would like to see as follows:

Graph 1
Green: total active FF in wh space
Blue: total corps/alliances having active FF in wh space

Graph 2
Plot out Graph 1 and overlay it w/ total active FF by wh class so a distribution could be seen

Graph 3
Plot out Graph 1 and overlay it with corps w/ active FF by wh class so a distribution could be seen

Can we get a look at these? It would put A LOT of speculation to rest.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1883 - 2014-09-09 17:04:29 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I don't think wh activity has gone down over the last year (last 2 months is another story). I think c5/c6 activity went down over the past year. I think the big fish chased a lot of the little fish into the shallows so to speak. A lot of guys I know went low class because that's where the fun was for them.

I also think that there are a few large wh groups that are a lot more forum vocal than the smaller groups, so their message gets out a lot more.

I would think the real metric that most of us are interested in seeing is the pvp losses in wh graphed out over time from the beginning of wh to the end. I think it would be pretty easy to pull that out of the server.

Another interesting set of graphs would be active FF in wh from the beginning until now. This one I would like to see as follows:

Graph 1
Green: total active FF in wh space
Blue: total corps having active FF in wh space

Graph 2
Plot out Graph 1 and overlay it w/ total active FF by wh class so a distribution could be seen

Graph 3
Plot out Graph 1 and overlay it with corps w/ active FF by wh class so a distribution could be seen

Can we get a look at these? It would put A LOT of speculation to rest.


I was in a C4 corp before, and I was surprised at just how many dead sticks were appearing in lower class holes, apparently it has been going on for a while now.
Either way, I am sure they have the data, and will be looking at it, I honestly do not believe we will ever see it, as it serves no purpose to dwell on past mistakes, they just need to call on the best resources they have available to find ways to undo them, and reverse the drain of vitality from wormhole space.

I think we all agree that if wormhole space is vital and alive, everyone benefits from a healthy ecology?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#1884 - 2014-09-09 20:10:37 UTC
Could make a graph with wh kills with zkill's API

Blue-Fire Best Fire
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1885 - 2014-09-09 21:08:35 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.

Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes.
I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.

thanks



Pretty simple equation.

If the data supported that this change did not negatively affect wornhole population and participation, CCP would be pumping out all kinds of data trumpeting how wonderful this change was, regardless of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

But they have not. Does not take a genius to know why not.


Lets just be a little realistic here, changes went in , some or particuarly one change raised the concerns of almost the entirety of wormhole space, who said to a man, "this is wrong and in combination with the other changes will have negative effects" ( possibly more stongly said).

Now when the figures start coming in showing that was actually correct, would one expect anyone to say, "here guys, You were right, and I was a complete muppet?"

No, human nature will ensure that they wish to be sure of that, and to try to understand why they were so wrong.
They acted according to their best abilities and beliefs, if the starting assumptions are wrong, then the rest cannot succeed.

Whoever advised them that the mass spawn suggestion was a good idea, has a great deal to answer for, he played CCP and the wormhole community for fools.
Hopefully it was just a matter or ignorance or lack of thought and not malice. Because it would have taken a particular brand of crazy for a wormholer to think it was a good idea, for more than the first sugar rush of losses from those who did not read devblogs and died, and to furthermore think that the unending outrage from the community and damage to the relationship would ever be worthwhile.

So.
They will make the new changes to undo the damage. And retain face by distraction or introducing something completely different, saying this was their plan all along and the changes were just a preparation and no longer needed.
Hopefully this will happen swiftly, as any who leave, are unlikely to return, we want more players of all types in wormholes, hopefully something to attract people will come soon.
I believe that CCP have their own, their companies, and their players interests at heart.

We have all seen activity in wormholes decrease over the last year, it is clear as day, the number of empty systems that once had inhabitants and were full of life, now with only dead sticks left behind.

They obviously thought Hyperion would help things recover, they must have seen this data, in what form, and how granular, only they know, we will never know exactly how many left, we do not need to.

All we want is more life, more inhabitants, more to shoot, and more to be shot at by, and the ability for wormhole space residents in all areas to be able to finance their life, and losses within wormhole space, but sadly their changes are having exactly the opposite effect.

This will not be ignored as it is in their, and our best interests together to resolve.

When the metrics are clear and they NEED hard data, they will find some way, any way to rectify this, hopefully they will listen to Corbexx, he seems to have a very good and clear understanding of the issues and the cure.

This forum also contains a great deal of experienced talented players with good suggestions. (Ignoring the usual suspects who have as much of an idea about wormhole mechanics, as a flatworm has of multidimentional physics.)

Apart from them, I really cannot see a GRR Goons in this although they certainly benefit where wormholers don't, just not enough for it to be deliberate other than just messing with peoples heads and causing grief. But either way, this expansion will not remain unchanged, as any figures will just confirm how it fails in it's goal.

So CCP please roll back the mass random spawn mechanic at the earliest possible opportunity, as this is the most egregious, and then there is the possibility to balance the others and move on.


Then again, the mass spawn mechanic didn't actually cause an end of the world and pretty much negates your whole post.

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1886 - 2014-09-09 23:49:30 UTC
WH problem is still very relevant CCP.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1887 - 2014-09-10 00:06:11 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.

Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes.
I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.

thanks



Pretty simple equation.

If the data supported that this change did not negatively affect wornhole population and participation, CCP would be pumping out all kinds of data trumpeting how wonderful this change was, regardless of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

But they have not. Does not take a genius to know why not.


Lets just be a little realistic here, changes went in , some or particuarly one change raised the concerns of almost the entirety of wormhole space, who said to a man, "this is wrong and in combination with the other changes will have negative effects" ( possibly more stongly said).

Now when the figures start coming in showing that was actually correct, would one expect anyone to say, "here guys, You were right, and I was a complete muppet?"

No, human nature will ensure that they wish to be sure of that, and to try to understand why they were so wrong.
They acted according to their best abilities and beliefs, if the starting assumptions are wrong, then the rest cannot succeed.

Whoever advised them that the mass spawn suggestion was a good idea, has a great deal to answer for, he played CCP and the wormhole community for fools.
Hopefully it was just a matter or ignorance or lack of thought and not malice. Because it would have taken a particular brand of crazy for a wormholer to think it was a good idea, for more than the first sugar rush of losses from those who did not read devblogs and died, and to furthermore think that the unending outrage from the community and damage to the relationship would ever be worthwhile.

So.
They will make the new changes to undo the damage. And retain face by distraction or introducing something completely different, saying this was their plan all along and the changes were just a preparation and no longer needed.
Hopefully this will happen swiftly, as any who leave, are unlikely to return, we want more players of all types in wormholes, hopefully something to attract people will come soon.
I believe that CCP have their own, their companies, and their players interests at heart.

We have all seen activity in wormholes decrease over the last year, it is clear as day, the number of empty systems that once had inhabitants and were full of life, now with only dead sticks left behind.

They obviously thought Hyperion would help things recover, they must have seen this data, in what form, and how granular, only they know, we will never know exactly how many left, we do not need to.

All we want is more life, more inhabitants, more to shoot, and more to be shot at by, and the ability for wormhole space residents in all areas to be able to finance their life, and losses within wormhole space, but sadly their changes are having exactly the opposite effect.

This will not be ignored as it is in their, and our best interests together to resolve.

When the metrics are clear and they NEED hard data, they will find some way, any way to rectify this, hopefully they will listen to Corbexx, he seems to have a very good and clear understanding of the issues and the cure.

This forum also contains a great deal of experienced talented players with good suggestions. (Ignoring the usual suspects who have as much of an idea about wormhole mechanics, as a flatworm has of multidimentional physics.)

Apart from them, I really cannot see a GRR Goons in this although they certainly benefit where wormholers don't, just not enough for it to be deliberate other than just messing with peoples heads and causing grief. But either way, this expansion will not remain unchanged, as any figures will just confirm how it fails in it's goal.

So CCP please roll back the mass random spawn mechanic at the earliest possible opportunity, as this is the most egregious, and then there is the possibility to balance the others and move on.


Then again, the mass spawn mechanic didn't actually cause an end of the world and pretty much negates your whole post.



No one ever said It would,

It still Makes it a bad mechanic that is bad for wormhole space, What did you expect it to behave like a nuclear weapon?
But that has been explained over more than 100 pages in the various threads.

But please continue to ignore all you do not understand, I expect you will continue to.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1888 - 2014-09-10 10:14:41 UTC
I have removed some off-topic posts. Please stay on topic and be respectful to other players. If you have nothing constructive or nice to say, please do not derail the purpose of the thread.

Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.


Thanks for your cooperation.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1889 - 2014-09-10 10:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
ah the mods ninja'ed me. gg.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1890 - 2014-09-11 12:10:51 UTC
Guess they managed to not get the thread reach 100 pages a second time.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1891 - 2014-09-11 12:58:50 UTC
We ganked some guys trying to consolidate and move out a few nights ago. I've processed a lot of ships and pods during my years in eve. Never felt bad our guilty about any of it. Feeling bad about nicking these guys during their tear down was a first for me. I haven't been able to feel OK about it for a couple of days. I'm making a short term corp policy to not wonk on folks that are obviously moving out.

I can't see where kicking a guy in the patoot after the game has already kicked him in the nutsack is good for anything. Just another nail in the "never coming back" coffin.

I'm not big on mercy or charity in - especially in eve, but before you gank some guys that are making a difficult decision, maybe think about what you are actually doing. Just for a week or so.
Steven Hackett
Overload This
Escalation Theory
#1892 - 2014-09-11 15:57:32 UTC
Would be great with a response from CCP on what/if they are working on to fix the issues raised in the many posts and/or what they are monitoring or how they see this change have affected the game and how they feel about it.

The answer may not make us happy, but it would at least show us that those generic messages saying "We are still listening to your feedback" that we see pop up from time to time without other new info isn't just what they seem to be (bullshit if you didn't catch that)..
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1893 - 2014-09-11 20:53:58 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread

soooooo nullsec get this well in advance

we got 2-3 weeks and only after discovering it for ourselves

/me sighs

So Much Space
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1894 - 2014-09-12 07:32:30 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread

soooooo nullsec get this well in advance

we got 2-3 weeks and only after discovering it for ourselves

/me sighs

wh space has always been the redheaded bastard stepchild of eve, regardless of what certain devs might profess. this patch, and the way the community was told to shut up, sit down, and be happy we got anything at all in 5 years is irrefutable proof of this.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1895 - 2014-09-12 07:45:20 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread

soooooo nullsec get this well in advance

we got 2-3 weeks and only after discovering it for ourselves

/me sighs


Don't make a mistake about assumption what they might change.

Despite the fact, that 0.0 is asked in advance very openly and politely for feedback, In comparison to wh Fozzie was not asking for more conflicts in 0.0, indeed he was pointing out, how happy they are, that in 0.0 they see more miners and ratters and they have the clear focus acc. to my understanding to improve industry as well. 0.0 is supposed to be the new hisec maybe?

That's so disturbing and even more frustrating to see how differently they treat their customer.
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1896 - 2014-09-12 08:28:45 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread

soooooo nullsec get this well in advance

we got 2-3 weeks and only after discovering it for ourselves

/me sighs


well on the upside, it gives us plenty of time to grab the popcorn get a nice comfy seat and enjoy the drama unfold. if null changes are handled as badly as hyperion then i cannot wait for the "feedback".
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#1897 - 2014-09-12 13:01:23 UTC
Mass based spawns are still annoying. We now have more battleships in our hole. Well played?
Chandoraa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1898 - 2014-09-12 13:02:51 UTC
The way that I am looking at this is that CCP will not simply remove a change that they have implemented. Imagine what would happen if it was simply removed, every little change in the future could be disputed and this referred to as an example of when CCP have done it previously

The only metaphor I could come up with is that the USA doesn't negotiate with terrorists for the exact same reason.

My suggestion to make everyone happy is to remove the WH mass jump distance rubbish and replace it with a change to the polarization mechanics to make each jump have a timer. I am not saying that every jump should be 4 minutes, but something like 1 minute on the first jump and then if you jump back within 4 minutes, like now you then have a 4 minute timer.

I would also like it if the timer started counting down after you de-cloak and you have a visual indication on the UI of how much time is remaining on that timer.

I believe that this will increase risk for capitals on WH as they will have to de-cloak and sit there for 1 minute with their arse in the air before jumping back to "safety". If the WH residents are on the ball and the capital gets jumped, the aggressors will have to try and burn it down within a minute (not very likely) or make a choice on whether or not they jump through to follow as they will be polarized on the other side for a minute.

Anyway this is just an idea I have been playing with and I wanted to keep this whole discussion going.

Thanks.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#1899 - 2014-09-12 16:07:40 UTC
Chandoraa wrote:
The way that I am looking at this is that CCP will not simply remove a change that they have implemented. Imagine what would happen if it was simply removed, every little change in the future could be disputed and this referred to as an example of when CCP have done it previously

The only metaphor I could come up with is that the USA doesn't negotiate with terrorists for the exact same reason.

My suggestion to make everyone happy is to remove the WH mass jump distance rubbish and replace it with a change to the polarization mechanics to make each jump have a timer. I am not saying that every jump should be 4 minutes, but something like 1 minute on the first jump and then if you jump back within 4 minutes, like now you then have a 4 minute timer.

I would also like it if the timer started counting down after you de-cloak and you have a visual indication on the UI of how much time is remaining on that timer.

I believe that this will increase risk for capitals on WH as they will have to de-cloak and sit there for 1 minute with their arse in the air before jumping back to "safety". If the WH residents are on the ball and the capital gets jumped, the aggressors will have to try and burn it down within a minute (not very likely) or make a choice on whether or not they jump through to follow as they will be polarized on the other side for a minute.

Anyway this is just an idea I have been playing with and I wanted to keep this whole discussion going.

Thanks.


The current mass change done in Hyperion is fine.

A small group with lokis or rapiers can now actively be a threat to WH collapsers, and also have more time to scan down those eager to quickly close their WH.

Keeping large ships near the WH, even with a 1mn timer, would simply make it too safe again to collapse WHs.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1900 - 2014-09-12 17:36:40 UTC
Saisin wrote:
The current mass change done in Hyperion is fine.

A small group with lokis or rapiers can now actively be a threat to WH collapsers, and also have more time to scan down those eager to quickly close their WH.

Keeping large ships near the WH, even with a 1mn timer, would simply make it too safe again to collapse WHs.


Single dictor / HIC + single dread = dead capital with the current mechanics.

Or you could jump a carrier in first, cloak, then jump back when someone tries to close it with another capital.


What if there were sleepers on both sides of the wormhole, like nullsec gate rats?
Amount and size would depend on a combination of "your" hole, and the other hole. Increased risk, like CCP wanted, and they can remove the spawn distance, like anyone with a brain who lives in wormholes wants.