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Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry

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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#161 - 2014-09-04 17:17:21 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Grace Chang wrote:
So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?



I wouldn't say no-one (but goons) wants to change compression. Items 2 and 3 on the initial list are ones I'm fairly happy with.




IF something has to change, those are the 2, although i would rather let it go a bit longer - maybe 8-12 weeks

As long as compression doesn't end up in Orca or Station....
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#162 - 2014-09-04 17:24:24 UTC
Grace Chang wrote:
So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?


I think it's pretty clear that the only intelligent opposition to the idea comes from a bare handful of players, mostly Kenneth Feld and to a certain degree Steve. The majority of the opposition comes from the barely-literate crowd who have only really puzzled out that because goons want something, they oppose it.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#163 - 2014-09-04 17:29:27 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
If you are going to allow compression in station or in an Orca, why not just have it mined compressed, just shows up in your ore hold as compressed

This way there will be zero thought required

BTW: For the thick and goons, that above was a joke

Because then compression still requires a reasonable amount of cooperation (and, unlike pos compression, offers PvP opportunities).

I fully understand wanting the game to be as obtuse and difficult as possible when you've figured out the way through the obtuseness and wish to protect your competitive advantage by keeping that barrier up. But that's not a reasonable argument that this is good game design, which still has not been made. Having people warp a freighter to a POS and back provides no useful content for anyone: it is make-work. The POS never has anything of value in it worth attacking. The freighter is always within a docking ring or pos shields.

What's the value here, besides that other people are less likely to jump through these machoistic hoops?
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2014-09-04 17:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
My spies tell me that Mittens is so upset at the Goon tears he will be logging in for the first time in a year and leading mining fleets to farm Veldspar.

Querns wrote:
I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise.


A compromise would be allowing supercap production in highsec. This is just another ploy to keep you and and your frenemies in power and living the easy and safe life .. forever.

Mr Omniblivion wrote:

The difference between the CFC comments and the random empire alts in this thread is that we are making a concerted effort to create a local T1 marketplace in nullsec.


Ahh ... right. complete bull***. You want to pop out Titans like they're Frigates.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Strawberries'n Carnage
MyLeftArmy
#165 - 2014-09-04 17:48:12 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
Strawberries'n Carnage wrote:
then that is a huge reason that more people are not doing it, the compressed ores are still referring to the old method which seems very unprofitable.


If it is true that the in game information is still referencing the old way to compress ore, then that is a big bug that needs to be fixed quickly. I honestly have not looked recently.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Reprocessing#Compression

Eve University's website is updated.

Compression is dead simple: Online your POS. Online your Compression Array. Dump your ore in the compression array. Right click your ore and choose compress. Compression is instant. It requires no blueprints and no skills. 100 units of ore become 1 unit of compressed ore. That makes it very easy to quickly see how much profit you are making from each batch of raw ore. Just slide the decimal point.

The worst part is hassling with the POS interface if you have never run one before.


I was fighting with Google searching for anything that was about refining and compressing and current and I must have missed this, definitely a great help.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#166 - 2014-09-04 18:02:59 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Grace Chang wrote:
So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?


I think it's pretty clear that the only intelligent opposition to the idea comes from a bare handful of players, mostly Kenneth Feld and to a certain degree Steve. The majority of the opposition comes from the barely-literate crowd who have only really puzzled out that because goons want something, they oppose it.


Truth be told, people are lazy.
This is why they refine instead of compress (and the associated hauling) despite the loss of income
This is why many will ask for compression at a station
Giving in to the lazy doesn't necessarily make things better
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#167 - 2014-09-04 18:35:37 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
The reason the Retriever and Mackinaw are so popular is because they have built-in haulers, so in a small group you aren't spending a character on logistics overhead. Everyone can mine. That popularity points to a lack of interest among miners for logistics ships generally.

Um, no. The Retriever and Mackinaw are popular because you don't have to jetcan mine and risk being can-flipped. It's not because miners think industrial ships are icky.


Whoosh!

The point is below a fleet of a certain size--and high sec has many of these--a dedicated industrial pilot doesn't make sense. "Icky" has nothing to do with it.

The inability to can-flip is also nice, of course, except that it's been replaced by straight ganks.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Wopasi
Wicoti
#168 - 2014-09-04 20:03:43 UTC
If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.

It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.

Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#169 - 2014-09-04 20:19:43 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Whoosh!

The point is below a fleet of a certain size--and high sec has many of these--a dedicated industrial pilot doesn't make sense. "Icky" has nothing to do with it.

The inability to can-flip is also nice, of course, except that it's been replaced by straight ganks.

You should try reading your own posts:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Unfortunately (fortunately?), you can't put a POS in an ore bay, which means that the pop-up POS posited in this thread is going to be used exclusively by larger and more organized corps.

The point has nothing to do with a dedicated industrial pilot, because you don't need a dedicated industrial pilot to throw up a POS. Anyone with any faction's indy ship trained to 1 can do it, and they can switch out to a miner after its up.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2014-09-04 20:41:11 UTC
Wopasi wrote:
If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.

It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.

Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.


You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#171 - 2014-09-04 20:51:50 UTC
Sentamon wrote:

You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help.

Ah, yes -- the mark of one who is completely outside of their ability to participate in a debate -- deriding the individuals so debating as "crying."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#172 - 2014-09-04 20:58:05 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Wopasi wrote:
If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.

It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.

Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.


You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help.


I have no sympathy for someone who is too lazy to mine veldspar and has to pay 20 ISK a unit for it. The price difference sounds like a convenience fee. I like the story about how scarce veldspar is in null sec myself, yet if you fly around out there, there is system after system of completely empty sov space with literally THOUSANDS of belts that are never touched.

This whole thing is an amusing fairy tale for sure.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#173 - 2014-09-04 22:21:21 UTC
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita

Nope ... sorry ... not happening.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#174 - 2014-09-04 22:27:11 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita

Nope ... sorry ... not happening.

Public courier contracts have collateral options, allowing you to diversify hauling risk.

I think the 50%+ margin people in this thread seem entitled to having will cover a few million isk spent on courier fees.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#175 - 2014-09-04 22:29:02 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita

Nope ... sorry ... not happening.

Work out the value you can move in a blockade runner of compressed ore. Then blink, work it out again. And consider not using a Freighter.
Wopasi
Wicoti
#176 - 2014-09-04 22:40:34 UTC
If you have too many high ends, then lower the market costs of high ends and pay more for low-ends. Flip the market based on a new alignment of mineral value.

Your machine requires more resources than you can acquire to keep it running. Since you cannot enslave the local population to work for you, acquiring more space will not solve the problem. Diplomacy to get others to cooperate with you will be problematic, your are Goons and have made the burden you carry.

So if neither military conquest nor diplomacy will work and if CCP will not change the game mechanics in your favor then you can either be patient until the market corrects (possible if those who hunt you share your problems) or declare economic war and disrupt the mineral market.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2014-09-04 22:42:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita

Nope ... sorry ... not happening.

Work out the value you can move in a blockade runner of compressed ore. Then blink, work it out again. And consider not using a Freighter.


I wouldn't take a blockage runner or anything else filled with ore to Jita these days. Now that I really think about it, mining ore for anything but a local highsec producer is incredibly stupid and wasteful.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#178 - 2014-09-04 22:44:16 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita

Nope ... sorry ... not happening.



freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil

Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so

Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time


You act like this is my first rodeo
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2014-09-04 22:53:16 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita

Nope ... sorry ... not happening.



freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil

Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so

Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time


You act like this is my first rodeo


The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#180 - 2014-09-04 22:57:28 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita

Nope ... sorry ... not happening.



freighter loads of high sec barely tops 400 mil

Anyway, I bring in freighters, setup a pos, compress and jump out, all in about an hour or so

Small faction towers take 12 min to anchor and online, very little overall time


You act like this is my first rodeo


The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.



If they are going to gank, fine, no worries

What i meant was the 400 mil in high sec ore isn't going to tip the scales and get them frothy at the mouth, there are plenty of other juicy options for them typically.

Again, if it is your time, so be it, but the ore won't tip the scale.