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Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry

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Author
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2014-09-04 23:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Sentamon wrote:
The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.


You should be fine, last I heard they were heading with MiniLuv to some systems where this PL guy has 12 frieghters and a titan moving raw ore.



Related to compression- actually making compression easier for the layman makes it safer for them to get their compressed ore to the market via blockade runners! Praise be the benevolent Goons for suggesting that we make it harder to gank ore shipments!

Edit: specifically, this one-
Querns wrote:
Edit: After some, well, strenuous debate on the topic, a compromise has emerged that I think everyone can enjoy. Allow the Orca to fit the Industrial Core, giving it the ability to compress ore.


Industrial Core orca would not remove the use for compression towers- miners could decide if they wanted to park their orca at the belt to compress the ore (more risk and less cost) or simply haul ore to a POS to compress it there (less risk and more cost).
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#182 - 2014-09-04 23:12:20 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

Related to compression- actually making compression easier for the layman makes it safer for them to get their compressed ore to the market via blockade runners! Praise be the benevolent Goons for suggesting that we make it harder to gank ore shipments!

Except of course, it actually makes it easier if people start bothering to target BR's.
And it's nothing to do with your benevolence.

And it destroys the purpose of having a high sec corp.
And of having a high sec POS.

So what you are actually doing is attacking High Sec game play for your own benefit.... Hey, what a surprise.

Ever stop to think that some of us don't fall for your tall tales about why you are doing things and can actually do the reasoning ourselves to work out what is going on. Especially when you disguise it as poorly as you have this time, and give such feeble excuses. At least normally you have a better disguise and misdirection going on.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2014-09-04 23:15:32 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So what you are actually doing is attacking High Sec game play for your own benefit.... Hey, what a surprise.


This is a serious question:

How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin".
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#184 - 2014-09-04 23:36:30 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
The freighter alone is 1.3 bil ISK. Risking that hauling ore to a major trade hub probably isn't the best idea these days. I know there are those that disagree, and they make for great CODE. kill mails.


You should be fine, last I heard they were heading with MiniLuv to some systems where this PL guy has 12 frieghters and a titan moving raw ore.




AMAMAKE II-1 Tribal something or other station

Stop by ANYTIME, I mean anytime

Bring friends

Stay a while, we will get you home quickly
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#185 - 2014-09-04 23:51:08 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:


This is a serious question:

How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin".

Because you are back to promoting solo game play, by removing one of the largest incentives I've seen for people in highsec to work together to mitigate the cost of a tower between an entire corp for compression.
We need more factors which benefit a group working together, not less. So needing a POS to compress and a POS being hard for a solo pilot to operate are actually GOOD things, not bad things.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2014-09-05 00:42:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:


This is a serious question:

How is our proposal to make compression more accessible an "attack" on High Sec game play? So far, the only rebuttals that have been presented are "nullsec has more low end ore" and "it is fine as is because I'm making a xx% profit margin".

Because you are back to promoting solo game play, by removing one of the largest incentives I've seen for people in highsec to work together to mitigate the cost of a tower between an entire corp for compression.
We need more factors which benefit a group working together, not less. So needing a POS to compress and a POS being hard for a solo pilot to operate are actually GOOD things, not bad things.


So, out of all the issues you can think of, that's the one you go with.

Okay-

Your argument is that changing compression is a bad idea because sharing a POS for the compression module is revolutionary content in promoting people to work together, and that Goons are back to "promoting solo game play".

Rebuttal:
Querns wrote:
Edit: After some, well, strenuous debate on the topic, a compromise has emerged that I think everyone can enjoy. Allow the Orca to fit the Industrial Core, giving it the ability to compress ore.


Giving the Orca a compression module would encourage miners to fleet together and engage in shooting asteroids as a fleet. This is a much more accessible solution than a POS, because the fleet of miners would then not be restricted to one system.

Also, as pointed out several times earlier in this thread, running a POS is exceptionally cheap and one person can easily manage a POS (see: almost every system in empire). Furthermore, as per your argument with sharing a POS, once the initial agreement is set up (and standings are set), miners are no longer encouraged to actually work together- an individual miner can just go to the POS, compress, and take that ore to the station.


Does anyone have an actual reason why implementing a change to compression is a bad idea?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#187 - 2014-09-05 00:58:50 UTC
The Orca is accessible in 17 days. This does not encourage corps.
Simply because you want to belittle an argument that runs counter to the goons does not make it invalid. Nor do you get to dismiss the requirements of a corp working together to keep a POS running.

Your entire argument is based on 'Goons need more compressed ore'.
So yes, we've made plenty of arguments why this is a bad idea, and the only argument you have made to it being a good idea is 'Goons get more compressed ore'
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2014-09-05 01:32:54 UTC
As a funny aside. Sometimes we don't all share the same degree of enthusiasm for a change.

Myself, I don't actually think we need station compression this moment as I would like to see how this plays out more. I would like to see the higher yield variants rolled into a base compressed type though. Just to simplify the whole process.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#189 - 2014-09-05 01:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Aryth wrote:

I would like to see the higher yield variants rolled into a base compressed type though. Just to simplify the whole process.

Now that change I can get behind.

Personally I'd go one step further and just roll it right in at the base level. So mining the +5% ore gives you 5% more yield than normal as it's easier to extract fast. Rather than a different variant that is richer. As that system allows for more subtle tweaks later without needing to create a new ore for the market. Since you can run the extra yield via variable on the object. And have that variable influenced by other factors as well.

Does come with the downside of ore holds filling faster also. But that might not be a bad thing overall since it does promote more team play in regards to haulers. If a little more micromanagement being a bad thing. 50/50?
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2014-09-05 02:15:28 UTC
I really would love to see Courier contracts to POS somehow. Some sort of anchorable outside the shields invuln mod if you had to. Removing the worst component, M3 movement to your POS, could go a long way to turning this into a really niche profession. It also means a whole lot more things go boom in highsec POS kills.

That sounds like EVE to me.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

ELWhappo Sanchez
#191 - 2014-09-05 04:29:22 UTC
if your hauling to a pos to compress instead of your miners dropping to the pos while mining your doing it wrong.
orca with compression would be great imo.
Galen Dnari
Dnari Mining and Manufacturing
#192 - 2014-09-05 06:23:37 UTC
So I had a nice reply all crafted, which contained no html code. Then I made the mistake - I hit "Post". Says the forum software "you can't have html in your post!" and it trashed the whole thing. **** it. Nobody cares what I think anyway.

http://eveboard.com/ub/1939472205-31.png

Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#193 - 2014-09-05 07:18:03 UTC
Galen Dnari wrote:
So I had a nice reply all crafted, which contained no html code. Then I made the mistake - I hit "Post". Says the forum software "you can't have html in your post!" and it trashed the whole thing. **** it. Nobody cares what I think anyway.


Nooo!!! I care! D:
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#194 - 2014-09-05 08:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nex Killer
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Querns wrote:
I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise.



Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless.


(In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate)


Steve a Orca compressing while it is in belt would be the best thing ever! I mutlibox 15 ice miners, 1 Orca Booster and 1 Freighter and when I'm ready to compress about 100K ice it takes so dam long to haul back and forth from station to PoS with 3 freighters all max cargo moving the ice to the PoS. If I could compress it at the belt and then dock up and dump it at the station it would be so much of a help. CCP said the reason why they made the compress module is so that people could compress in highsec and I asked them many times why don't they just make it so the Orca could compress and not make some PoS module and none of the ever replied. I even made a thread here on the Science & Industry area on the fourms and it just got locked once it hit the second page: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4374920

Mr Omniblivion wrote:
People that are crying GRR Goons need to realize that if changes are made to supply in null, that would only be beneficial to you, as you'd have more targets to come roam and kill. Otherwise, we could just keep living off of rental and moon goo income with no way for you to affect it.


If you can't keep living off what you have now because of how compress works now then you don't have the right to own that space anymore and maybe someone that can live there will take your place.


Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Industrial Core orca would not remove the use for compression towers- miners could decide if they wanted to park their orca at the belt to compress the ore (more risk and less cost) or simply haul ore to a POS to compress it there (less risk and more cost).


How is compressing in a belt more risk? A Orca has about 424K EHP unhearted about 100K than a freighter. Is it the core that takes 5mins todo a cycle? Okay half that to only be 2.5mins.


Querns wrote:
Does anyone have an actual reason why implementing a change to compression is a bad idea?


Yes you are killing a mini profession that was created. People and friends are coming together to lunch and run a PoS to spend countless hours moving from station to station collecting the ore that they bought from stations and then spending time moving it to a PoS and compressing it and then once again moving it to a trade hub to for their profit.

I'm not trying to make a Grr Goon post but you guys are forcing people do it. You are crying because you don't want to buy the compressed ore at the prices they are at now and what the prices lower because you are already spending 50% more in jump fuel because of that change and want lower prices on the materials . I get it. But the people spending the time on compressing the ore are the ones that get to make post what they want for the ore, not you the buyers. Their the ones that spend countless hours compressing that ore for you to buy and they have to right to sell it at what they want to and not what you want it for. If you don't buy it someone else is going to.
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#195 - 2014-09-05 13:08:56 UTC
ELWhappo Sanchez wrote:
if your hauling to a pos to compress instead of your miners dropping to the pos while mining your doing it wrong.
orca with compression would be great imo.


Yes. A POS in a mining op is your staging point - your miners drop off in the hangar (or now, just dump in the compression array) as their holds fill up. Covetors/Hulks will probably have an Orca, so in this scenario the Orca would dump at the POS as the hold fills up.

Compression/refining should happen as soon as possible after gathering the ore as you then minimize the logistics hassle of hauling uncompressed ore around. This is what's behind my desire for a Mobile Compression Unit or something like it: I'd like to just be able to drop a MCU right in the belt where I'm mining and compress as I go. If I had an MCU, I wouldn't even need a POS any more.
X ATM092
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#196 - 2014-09-05 14:27:15 UTC
The issue is that the moment someone hits refine the minerals are pretty much locked into their current location. Previously that was not the case. If you wanted to buy a titan worth of minerals in Jita 4-4 you could, that was where the minerals were, and then you could compress and move them at will. Now if you want to buy a titan worth of comp ore in Jita you're **** out of luck because there simply isn't enough comp ore there. You have this crazy situation where there are two very, very different trit prices. The price of trit in Jita, where there is a glut from all these miners just refining trit that nobody can use, and the price of trit in nullsec, which is inflated by all of nullsec industry competing for not enough comp ore.

The only efficient point at which to comp the ore is as you mine it, with a comp pos in system. Ore itself is too big to efficiently be moved to a central location like Jita and the market is too spread out and thin for you to efficiently go around picking it up and compressing it yourself. The only way ore gets compressed without a shitton of "ore I comp myself is free" thinking is by the highsec miner who, by virtue of being a highsec miner, doesn't know about ore compression, doesn't care and wouldn't want to optimise his isk per hour, even if he knew about it.

The system is poorly conceived because it places the burden upon the single player group least interested in it. I have put a lot of time into coming up with innovative workarounds for this and am not mad about Crius, it actually helps me because it forces other people out of the market, but it is not working as intended. Nullsec industry is still a waste of time because of the effect of two different trit prices, importing from Jita is, as before, still the way to go. The purpose of better nullsec refining, manufacturing, more expensive jumps and so forth was to localise industry in null but the effect has been the opposite.
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#197 - 2014-09-05 14:51:17 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
The issue is that the moment someone hits refine the minerals are pretty much locked into their current location. Previously that was not the case. If you wanted to buy a titan worth of minerals in Jita 4-4 you could, that was where the minerals were, and then you could compress and move them at will. Now if you want to buy a titan worth of comp ore in Jita you're **** out of luck because there simply isn't enough comp ore there. You have this crazy situation where there are two very, very different trit prices. The price of trit in Jita, where there is a glut from all these miners just refining trit that nobody can use, and the price of trit in nullsec, which is inflated by all of nullsec industry competing for not enough comp ore.

The only efficient point at which to comp the ore is as you mine it, with a comp pos in system. Ore itself is too big to efficiently be moved to a central location like Jita and the market is too spread out and thin for you to efficiently go around picking it up and compressing it yourself. The only way ore gets compressed without a shitton of "ore I comp myself is free" thinking is by the highsec miner who, by virtue of being a highsec miner, doesn't know about ore compression, doesn't care and wouldn't want to optimise his isk per hour, even if he knew about it.

The system is poorly conceived because it places the burden upon the single player group least interested in it. I have put a lot of time into coming up with innovative workarounds for this and am not mad about Crius, it actually helps me because it forces other people out of the market, but it is not working as intended. Nullsec industry is still a waste of time because of the effect of two different trit prices, importing from Jita is, as before, still the way to go. The purpose of better nullsec refining, manufacturing, more expensive jumps and so forth was to localise industry in null but the effect has been the opposite.


I'll say it again: give me a Mobile Compression Unit that I can drop in a belt and compress as I mine. Problem solved.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#198 - 2014-09-05 15:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
I'll say it again: give me a Mobile Compression Unit that I can drop in a belt and compress as I mine. Problem solved.

I like this idea too -- the limitations on the new mobile structures mean that a mobile compression unit would only work for the pilot that dropped it, making it ideal for smaller-time miners (not to mention that you typically cannot have more than one mobile structure anchored in a short radius.) Miners who are more organized or who are more affluent can use a POS or an orca, providing a clear "upgrade path" for compression.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#199 - 2014-09-05 16:09:40 UTC
I am not anti-Goons. I am not anti-null sec. I like building things and would happily sell to everyone, as long as I can make a profit. All sides of the null-sec arms race are feeling the same pinch. Right now, a number of people in null-sec are angry because they were forced to choose between paying more than they wanted to for compressed ore, hiring people to compress ore for them, buying raw minerals and doing extra hauling, or letting their schedules slip.

There may or may not currently be a shortage of compressed ore on the market. There is definately a shortage of omber on the market, but that is because it has not been worth miners' time to target those asteroids for years. That is not a compression issue.

The profits currently being made by the middlemen compressors may or may not currently be too high. (I do think they are too high.) The market will sort things out. More competition will bring profits down. Nobody keeps this level of profit long, when the barriers to entry (SP and sunk-costs) are so low.


High sec ore compression is an interesting thing recently added to the game.

Previously, every miner was forced to run missions until they had 6.7 standings with some corporation. Then they flew all their ore to a station and pushed a button to refine it. Then they shipped it to a market. This was the only option.

Today there are three options. 1) They can still do the above. 2) They can sell the raw ore to middlemen where they found it. Buy orders are higher than mineral value! Or 3) they can put up a POS and compress it. Some people are still doing the first out of habit. Putting a big red warning on the refining interface will educate them. Many other miners are already choosing options two and three. If miners see they can make more isk, they will act in their own best interest, and you will get more compressed ore reaching market.

If compression is made ubiquitous, by allowing it in belts or in a station, instantaneously, and with standings and skill point requirements similar to or less than refining (currently both requirements are 0), then the refine button will simply have been replaced by the compress button.

The interesting thing will have been taken out of the game.

Every miner will compress all their ore. Because it took no effort, compression will have no value. Compressed ore will sell at exactly the mineral price. And then why did the miner have to push the button at all? Why did it not come out of the asteroid pre-compressed?

Honestly, I think that is the entire point of the OP. You deny it, but I know you are smart enough to realize that if compression is made ubiquitous, you will not need to pay people to do it. You will get your minerals even cheaper than when you had to go through the hassle of building 425mm railguns.


In conclusion, I am strongly pro intersting things. I do not think, "My costs and effort are higher than I anticipated," or, "My schedule slipped," are good enough reasons to take an interesting thing back out of the game.
ELWhappo Sanchez
#200 - 2014-09-05 16:47:33 UTC
you forgot option #4 screw mining ore because mining ice pays 4x more right now.
until there's more isk in it and more options than just setting up a pos and burning charters and fuel no dice.
oh ya and getting war dec'd every other day by jack asses and having to take the pos down again.
no hs miner really wants to play that game because of jerks blanket war deccing mining corps over and over in hs.