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Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry

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Valedictio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2014-09-04 13:35:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Valedictio
compression is easy,

100 Units of Ore Compresses to 1 Unit of Compressed Ore.

You need no blueprints or anything else, Just the ore and the ability to compress somewhere.

and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.

Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
Strawberries'n Carnage
MyLeftArmy
#142 - 2014-09-04 13:37:11 UTC
then that is a huge reason that more people are not doing it, the compressed ores are still referring to the old method which seems very unprofitable.
Valedictio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2014-09-04 14:27:56 UTC
So there is a shortage of Compressed ore in Jita of the various flavours wanted/needed by our esteemed overlords in null ?

Despite various posts claiming Empire Industry is dead, I'm still doing it, granted not to the same extent mainly due to RL constraints and a lacklustre approach (Hello Kitty Industry).

I don't believe there is any problem with compression, we do not need Station compression, either fly direct to Rorq or your compression array, both are quite capable of it.

As to the lack of certain ore types, you will find all four empires are missing at least one of the minerals (as CCP states, to encourage trade) Jita being in Caldari Space means they have no access to Omber (Barring Grav sites) so naturally look to the other Trade Hubs.

Null is always going to have an abundance of high end minerals to export to empire, you have an abundance of them.

If your ISBoxer fleets aren't being selective and going to belts or your region cannot support your Industry requirements then MAYBE, Just maybe you are doing it wrong.

Regardless of how rational and informed you come across no empire miner (who isn't an alt of yours) is going to trust you to come to any sort of formal arrangement to supply Ore, you have hated and riddiculed them since your appearance in the game, payback a ***** ?

seems the only nullsec entity complaining about a lack of anything to do with compressed ore or certain minerals are CFC and friends, if everyone else is doing fine ask yourself what are you doing (or have done) wrong ?

and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.

Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#144 - 2014-09-04 14:50:02 UTC
Strawberries'n Carnage wrote:
then that is a huge reason that more people are not doing it, the compressed ores are still referring to the old method which seems very unprofitable.


If it is true that the in game information is still referencing the old way to compress ore, then that is a big bug that needs to be fixed quickly. I honestly have not looked recently.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Reprocessing#Compression

Eve University's website is updated.

Compression is dead simple: Online your POS. Online your Compression Array. Dump your ore in the compression array. Right click your ore and choose compress. Compression is instant. It requires no blueprints and no skills. 100 units of ore become 1 unit of compressed ore. That makes it very easy to quickly see how much profit you are making from each batch of raw ore. Just slide the decimal point.

The worst part is hassling with the POS interface if you have never run one before.
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#145 - 2014-09-04 15:07:11 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically.

You're thinking this through wrong. You only put it up when and where you need it. A compression POS doesn't just save you ISK, it lets you mine anywhere in high-sec without the need of a freighter fleet to get your goods to market. So not only do you make more ISK on the rocks you mine, but it saves you over one billion ISK for your logistics chain. It's a better investment than upgrading a barge to an exhumer.


Oh, I agree (mostly). In fact, this is what I do myself. But it's not pain-free -- you still have the POS setup/teardown process, which can take up to an hour depending on how far away your target system is from where you're currently staged. Finding a moon, anchoring, and onlining everything will take a minimum of 30 minutes, and that doesn't take into account the process of getting all the stuff there in the first place. If you're going to do a full-on mining op, then it's usually worth it -- but for smaller ops or targeted ops where you're just looking for a specific amount of a certain ore (for manufacturing), then it's not really worth it. POS-staged mining ops are all about scale, and unless you have the scale, it's not worth the trouble.

As I said before, I think a solo or small-gang miner only needs one more element to be perfectly successful -- a Mobile Ore Compression module or something similar so they can compress the ore right in the belt and carry it in the barge's bay. Presto! Problem fixed. A POS retains its value for bigger ops (because Mobile modules are player-specific), but solo miners are freed from the overhead that a POS carries. CCP did this for the Mobile Tractor Unit and the Mobile Depot; I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the compression array.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#146 - 2014-09-04 15:23:18 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
The current problem is all the NPC-corp miners who still do the "mine -> refine -> sell to market" shtick, and refuse to change their gameplay (even if "just sell the damn ore" is actually more profitable).

Also, they're probably telling all the rookies that their way is the way to go.


As is the game's skill tree. As is the game's tutorial. I just ran an alt through it, and I don't remember seeing a peep about ore compression (though I admittedly wasn't looking too closely). Refining, sure, that comes up multiple times. It's completely unreasonable to expect optimal knowledge about ore compression to have reached down this far, especially when it is dependent on POSes.

Adding ore compression to the Orca would benefit larger mining corps, but neither Orcas nor freighters make much sense for the really small operations (never mind POSes--more because of the hassle than the expense). As I recall, it takes three max-skilled, max-yield Hulks before it makes sense to put an additional pilot in an Orca instead of another Hulk, and we're not talking about max-skilled, max-yield Hulks here. I'm sure the number is higher for Procurers, Retrievers and Skiffs skilled to 3 and 4.

The reason the Retriever and Mackinaw are so popular is because they have built-in haulers, so in a small group you aren't spending a character on logistics overhead. Everyone can mine. That popularity points to a lack of interest among miners for logistics ships generally. Unfortunately (fortunately?), you can't put a POS in an ore bay, which means that the pop-up POS posited in this thread is going to be used exclusively by larger and more organized corps. Not just the skill tree, not just the tutorial, not just inertia, but the very design of the most popular barges makes it easier and more painless to refine in station.

Given that, if you want compressed ore, you're going to have to reach out to the miners and set something up that works for all parties.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#147 - 2014-09-04 15:26:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Komi Toran
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Oh, I agree (mostly). In fact, this is what I do myself. But it's not pain-free -- you still have the POS setup/teardown process, which can take up to an hour depending on how far away your target system is from where you're currently staged. Finding a moon, anchoring, and onlining everything will take a minimum of 30 minutes, and that doesn't take into account the process of getting all the stuff there in the first place. If you're going to do a full-on mining op, then it's usually worth it -- but for smaller ops or targeted ops where you're just looking for a specific amount of a certain ore (for manufacturing), then it's not really worth it. POS-staged mining ops are all about scale, and unless you have the scale, it's not worth the trouble.

As I said before, I think a solo or small-gang miner only needs one more element to be perfectly successful -- a Mobile Ore Compression module or something similar so they can compress the ore right in the belt and carry it in the barge's bay. Presto! Problem fixed. A POS retains its value for bigger ops (because Mobile modules are player-specific), but solo miners are freed from the overhead that a POS carries. CCP did this for the Mobile Tractor Unit and the Mobile Depot; I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the compression array.

You are right that scale is the issue, but if you are mining to build, then you honestly don't care about efficiency. If you are a dedicated miner, then scale shouldn't be an issue for you: you can afford to stockpile minerals until you have enough where taking 15 minutes to set up a POS (only error in your math: 7:30 to anchor, 7:30 to online, and the compression array is either instantaneous or 5 whole seconds) is a negligible cost.

Also, if I'm a solo miner going to spend a day mining in a system, I'd set up the POS, load it with fuel, and drop my ore off at the compression array. The time saved not having to deal with docking timers and align times at a station will pay for it. If I'm an ISO-boxer, well, scale ceases to be an issue anyway.

Meanwhile, your Mobile Compression Array would make the Retriever/Mackinaw useless.

Dersen Lowery wrote:
The reason the Retriever and Mackinaw are so popular is because they have built-in haulers, so in a small group you aren't spending a character on logistics overhead. Everyone can mine. That popularity points to a lack of interest among miners for logistics ships generally.

Um, no. The Retriever and Mackinaw are popular because you don't have to jetcan mine and risk being can-flipped. It's not because miners think industrial ships are icky.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#148 - 2014-09-04 15:49:53 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:

Kind of a catch-22

I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part

This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine.

Oh...

Oh.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#149 - 2014-09-04 15:57:03 UTC
I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#150 - 2014-09-04 16:00:35 UTC
Querns wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:

Kind of a catch-22

I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part

This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine.

Oh...

Oh.



Some attempts at education were more hostile than others, some more subtle

In the end it has worked it self out

No matter what, in the end, I am only hated by half the blue donut, not by hi sec miners

I haven't even remotely slowed production, matter of fact, it has kind of increased. Teams have lowered overall prices and business is good.

Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh?

I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking


HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#151 - 2014-09-04 16:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Querns wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:

Kind of a catch-22

I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part

This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine.

Oh...

Oh.



Some attempts at education were more hostile than others, some more subtle

In the end it has worked it self out

No matter what, in the end, I am only hated by half the blue donut, not by hi sec miners

I haven't even remotely slowed production, matter of fact, it has kind of increased. Teams have lowered overall prices and business is good.

Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh?

I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking


HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman

I always like these "goons have screwed themselves out of the highsec market" posts because they fly in full ignorance of the concept of neutral alts. This isn't really a new concept -- as the largest corporation in the game, and one of the most vilified, any Goonswarm Federation member you can shake an Ishtar at has a neutral alt for conducting business in empire, due to our repeated, sustained wardecs. If we need to do business with basically anyone, we do it via these neutral alts to avoid wardecs and our own reputation. Who's to say we aren't doing what you're doing already?

And, yes, before you ask, I want station compression despite this. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is romantic and all, but it's, frankly, kinda stupid.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#152 - 2014-09-04 16:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Querns wrote:
I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise.



Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless.


(In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#153 - 2014-09-04 16:42:11 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Querns wrote:
I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise.



Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless.


(In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate)

I respect that. Don't worry about it -- I can tell the difference between differing opinions and antagonism. :)

Allowing the orca to compress moves the compression out of the starbase and into the (highsec) belt, where it can be disrupted (by bumping) and suicide ganked. An orca is also a sight more expensive than a small starbase -- you can run a starbase for several months before the orca is the cheaper option, and this doesn't include offlining the starbase to conserve fuel when you aren't using its services. The orca is also significantly more skill-intensive than a starbase -- starbases require Anchoring III and an orca requires several months of training.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2014-09-04 16:46:15 UTC
Firvain wrote:

So im recruiting miners, anyone wants to mine some veldspar in 0.0 belts feel free to mail me!


Good luck finding people willing to pay $10 so they can mine 0.0 for CFC. Pirate

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#155 - 2014-09-04 16:50:20 UTC
Well, /sitting/ in an orca is now, iirc about 17 days. Blink

That is a point though.

It'd be interesting if you need the ore processing skills at some level to be able to compress it. Though that may be a degree of complexity which is taking it too far.

One thing it would do is /massively/ increase linger time in highsec belts, as there'd be next to no need to offload the ore. An orca would be able to hold the equivalent of 50 million units of Veld in just its ore bay.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#156 - 2014-09-04 16:53:04 UTC
If you are going to allow compression in station or in an Orca, why not just have it mined compressed, just shows up in your ore hold as compressed

This way there will be zero thought required

BTW: For the thick and goons, that above was a joke




It is good the way it is, a nice balance between 3 different things

Do i sell ore?
Do i refine and sell minerals? (This requires quite a bit of skills, and an implant to be effective)
Do i compress and sell compressed? (This requires some effort)


Each one has a boundary to entry except the raw ore, it is a very nice progression and makes a lot of sense
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#157 - 2014-09-04 16:57:14 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Well, /sitting/ in an orca is now, iirc about 17 days. Blink

That is a point though.

It'd be interesting if you need the ore processing skills at some level to be able to compress it. Though that may be a degree of complexity which is taking it too far.

One thing it would do is /massively/ increase linger time in highsec belts, as there'd be next to no need to offload the ore. An orca would be able to hold the equivalent of 50 million units of Veld in just its ore bay.

Eh, yeah, true -- I was looking at one of my EFT plans, which was, hilariously enough, for an orca with links and decent drone skills. :V

Don't forget that the Industrial Core has its own skill requirements (about two weeks worth) and consumes Heavy Water during every siege cycle.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Grace Chang
Tyrannis Enterprises
#158 - 2014-09-04 17:12:03 UTC
So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#159 - 2014-09-04 17:14:42 UTC
Grace Chang wrote:
So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?



I wouldn't say no-one (but goons) wants to change compression. Items 2 and 3 on the initial list are ones I'm fairly happy with.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#160 - 2014-09-04 17:15:30 UTC
Grace Chang wrote:
So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?

There were folks in the thread that weren't goons who approved of the idea.

You're mistaking a volume of posts by a minority of people as "nobody."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.