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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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David Laurentson
Laurentson INC
#1781 - 2014-09-02 19:34:06 UTC
Chicken Exroofer wrote:

Why would they not have an orca? It fit's in to a c3, never mind a c4.
And building one certainly isn't that hard.


Main reason is the same one that'd make you want to use it in the first place: it's mass.
Now, it'll spawn ~11km off-hole, and has a top speed of "nah".


Way back in the day, I lived in a c2 with a lowsec static, with a failing corp, and I frequently had tot roll the hole on my own just to get fuel in. It sucked! Polarisation timers meant it'd take 20+ minutes to do. Add in an uncloaked hole-crawl every time, and it would have driven me out of the game years ago.


I'll be honest, the message I'm getting here is that T3s were too cheap, so w-space needed fewer bears, and the chosen approach was to make w-space less... comfortable... to live in.

And unfortunately, that's going to suck for folk who hunt bear.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1782 - 2014-09-02 20:43:12 UTC
Overall the level between reward and hostility is out of balance at the moment.

In the majority this can be tweaked, particuarly when corbexx has his figures of real income earned in the various hole types and the post hyperion metrics from CCP.

The mass spawn is the outrider here, the core of it is damaging, and that needs pulling until a more suitable replacement is found that does not break the whole cause and effect design of EVE, there's no place in EVE where one should ever get randomly put into a place where the player cannot influence the outcome.

Random disconnects and bugs are bad enough without them being designed into the game.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1783 - 2014-09-02 22:41:52 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Overall the level between reward and hostility is out of balance at the moment.

In the majority this can be tweaked, particuarly when corbexx has his figures of real income earned in the various hole types and the post hyperion metrics from CCP.

The mass spawn is the outrider here, the core of it is damaging, and that needs pulling until a more suitable replacement is found that does not break the whole cause and effect design of EVE, there's no place in EVE where one should ever get randomly put into a place where the player cannot influence the outcome.

Random disconnects and bugs are bad enough without them being designed into the game.

you know you've been posting the same thing about your rage against any randomness in where you wind up for ninety pages without really ever dealing with the reality that every gate in nullsec sticks you randomly on the edge of a large sphere and has for a decade

yet somehow we survive
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1784 - 2014-09-02 22:58:46 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Overall the level between reward and hostility is out of balance at the moment.

In the majority this can be tweaked, particuarly when corbexx has his figures of real income earned in the various hole types and the post hyperion metrics from CCP.

The mass spawn is the outrider here, the core of it is damaging, and that needs pulling until a more suitable replacement is found that does not break the whole cause and effect design of EVE, there's no place in EVE where one should ever get randomly put into a place where the player cannot influence the outcome.

Random disconnects and bugs are bad enough without them being designed into the game.

Welcome to a lesser version of the randomness everyone else in every other area of space already deals with.
Gates being a form of artificial wormhole and all if you bothered to read the lore.
And they kick everyone out 15k off the gate in a random direction. Not a mere 5k like most ships get in a WH.

It hasn't killed the rest of EVE. It won't kill WH's.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#1785 - 2014-09-02 23:20:20 UTC
With as many connections as we have had during the last few days there has not been any need to roll anything to find content in my own happy home.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1786 - 2014-09-02 23:24:23 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

It hasn't killed the rest of EVE. It won't kill WH's.


Flaw in your reasoning - WHs aren't like the rest of eve, so what might not kill the rest of Eve might very well kill WHs. (Or not).
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1787 - 2014-09-02 23:29:32 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

It hasn't killed the rest of EVE. It won't kill WH's.


Flaw in your reasoning - WHs aren't like the rest of eve, so what might not kill the rest of Eve might very well kill WHs. (Or not).

Ok, fair enough :P It's 'very unlikely' to kill WH's.
The lack of combat/data/relic sites spawning and the sheer number of WH's spawning seem to be a much bigger issue though.
Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#1788 - 2014-09-02 23:38:42 UTC
Oh dear. Now we have an invasion of clueless nullbears.

Wormholes are NOT stargates!
This discussion is not about subcaps that can burn into position within a few seconds. It's a about large and slow moving Caps.
When was the last time you jumped a cap through a stargate?

If anything you should compare wormholes with cynos.
Imagine you couldn't cyno your Jump Freighter right into docking range of a station and instead had to slowboat 10km before docking.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1789 - 2014-09-02 23:47:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Jessica Duranin wrote:
Oh dear. Now we have an invasion of clueless nullbears.

Wormholes are NOT stargates!
This discussion is not about subcaps that can burn into position within a few seconds. It's a about large and slow moving Caps.
When was the last time you jumped a cap through a stargate?

If anything you should compare wormholes with cynos.
Imagine you couldn't cyno your Jump Freighter right into docking range of a station and instead had to slowboat 10km before docking.

Freighters can use gates. Freighters constantly get caught 15km of a gate after jumping through it. Freighters can't instantly jump back.
Wormholes are not Stargates, you are right one way, but Stargates are Wormholes. Educate yourself on EVE lore.

As for Cynos, yes, also artificial Wormholes. And a lot of people have been wanting Cynos to have exactly this kind of slight scatter to stop exactly what you are talking about. Risk free Cap movement to a cyno on a station.

So.... Some angry Nullbears, a lot of happy other players that risk free cap movement went away, to answer your question.


Edit, oh, and Orca's can use gates also. Who also spawn further off a gate than they do off a WH, so have even longer to burn back.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1790 - 2014-09-02 23:48:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It hasn't killed the rest of EVE. It won't kill WH's.

Fascinating logic.
"Hey, having no local didn't kill wormhole space... let's remove local from k-space! What could possibly go wrong?"
Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#1791 - 2014-09-02 23:58:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Duranin
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Freighters can use gates. Freighters constantly get caught 15km of a gate after jumping through it. Freighters can't instantly jump back.

Did you just seriously try to compare the "risk" of flying a freighter in highsec with jumping a cap through a wormhole?
You must be really running low on arguments.
Freighters also tend to not need to refit of of each other.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1792 - 2014-09-03 00:06:54 UTC
No, I pointed out that your post was erroneous, since you tried to use freighters as your example.
Also you are aware of the cyno pinball effect I assume, which often happens and is random luck as well. If we want to discuss Cyno's and multiple caps needing to refit off each other.

Basically, you are crying now that it's your personal area of space having mechanics the other area's of space have dealt with for years & years also.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1793 - 2014-09-03 00:25:04 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
No, I pointed out that your post was erroneous, since you tried to use freighters as your example.
Also you are aware of the cyno pinball effect I assume, which often happens and is random luck as well. If we want to discuss Cyno's and multiple caps needing to refit off each other.

Basically, you are crying now that it's your personal area of space having mechanics the other area's of space have dealt with for years & years also.

I really do not want to get into the whole my space is better than yours argument.

Just accept that you do not understand wormhole space, and we will not try to bring wormhole mechanics to Known space.

Your analogy with star gates is so badly flawed. I do not want to be condescending, but everyone else in the mittani's words " is just shaking their heads".

I witnessed an disagreement in a pub a few years ago between two customers who were digger drivers, discussing how if they were in charge, they could get the vulcan bomber that landed in the local airport off the ground, when the pilots were saying it was impossible as the runway was too short.

They claimed that their opinion was important and valuable. Everyone else just pitied them for their ignorance.
And shook their heads in disbelief.

Surprisingly Everyone tended to listen to those that knew what they were talking about.Roll

The digger drivers were still arguing as they were thrown out at closing time, and are probably still arguing now.
Apparently the pilots were wimps and crybabies too, but 25 years later the plane is still there.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#1794 - 2014-09-03 00:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Jessica Duranin wrote:
Oh dear. Now we have an invasion of clueless nullbears.

Wormholes are NOT stargates!
This discussion is not about subcaps that can burn into position within a few seconds. It's a about large and slow moving Caps.
When was the last time you jumped a cap through a stargate?

If anything you should compare wormholes with cynos.
Imagine you couldn't cyno your Jump Freighter right into docking range of a station and instead had to slowboat 10km before docking.

Freighters can use gates. Freighters constantly get caught 15km of a gate after jumping through it. Freighters can't instantly jump back.
Wormholes are not Stargates, you are right one way, but Stargates are Wormholes. Educate yourself on EVE lore.

As for Cynos, yes, also artificial Wormholes. And a lot of people have been wanting Cynos to have exactly this kind of slight scatter to stop exactly what you are talking about. Risk free Cap movement to a cyno on a station.

So.... Some angry Nullbears, a lot of happy other players that risk free cap movement went away, to answer your question.


Edit, oh, and Orca's can use gates also. Who also spawn further off a gate than they do off a WH, so have even longer to burn back.


Counter argument to all of the above would be that you can, in nullsec and lowsec, cyno all of them to where you need to be with absolute ease. You cannot do that in a wormhole as you must use wormholes to move.

That being said this is all a moot point. The fact of the matter at hand is that in K-space one does not repeatedly need to crash backwards and forwards to a gate unlike in a wormhole.

Arguing (and I mean everyone arguing not just you) that we have this mechanic in null or vice versa is pointless due to the fact that null and J-space are completely seperate areas to live and play in. The mechanics, the meta and the tactics used to fight on a gate are not the same as those used when fighting on a hole.

These new mechanics stop smaller groups from being able to close a hole effectively (if they don't have numbers for the fleet of back up) and it also stops combat rolling as a means to effectively maintain hole control (something that has been a mechanic since the start of wormholes being lived in and fought on).

You don't jump a capital through a gate (you can't) to engage a fleet on the other side, you cyno it in with the back up. Whereas you can and do jump a capital through a hole to engage a fleet on the otherside. Comparing the two this way is like comparing an Orange to a Suspension Bridge.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#1795 - 2014-09-03 01:31:10 UTC
Sounds like we have more virgins giving advice on getting laid.
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1796 - 2014-09-03 02:45:40 UTC
Chicken Exroofer wrote:

Why would they not have an orca? It fit's in to a c3, never mind a c4.
And building one certainly isn't that hard.

because fozziecare
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1797 - 2014-09-03 02:52:32 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Jessica Duranin wrote:
Oh dear. Now we have an invasion of clueless nullbears.

Wormholes are NOT stargates!
This discussion is not about subcaps that can burn into position within a few seconds. It's a about large and slow moving Caps.
When was the last time you jumped a cap through a stargate?

If anything you should compare wormholes with cynos.
Imagine you couldn't cyno your Jump Freighter right into docking range of a station and instead had to slowboat 10km before docking.

Freighters can use gates. Freighters constantly get caught 15km of a gate after jumping through it. Freighters can't instantly jump back.
Wormholes are not Stargates, you are right one way, but Stargates are Wormholes. Educate yourself on EVE lore.

As for Cynos, yes, also artificial Wormholes. And a lot of people have been wanting Cynos to have exactly this kind of slight scatter to stop exactly what you are talking about. Risk free Cap movement to a cyno on a station.

So.... Some angry Nullbears, a lot of happy other players that risk free cap movement went away, to answer your question.


Edit, oh, and Orca's can use gates also. Who also spawn further off a gate than they do off a WH, so have even longer to burn back.

1st lore =/= game balance in any game ever
2nd the only gate based off a wh no longer functions (and hasnt for a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long time)
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1798 - 2014-09-03 08:37:31 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Overall the level between reward and hostility is out of balance at the moment.

In the majority this can be tweaked, particuarly when corbexx has his figures of real income earned in the various hole types and the post hyperion metrics from CCP.

The mass spawn is the outrider here, the core of it is damaging, and that needs pulling until a more suitable replacement is found that does not break the whole cause and effect design of EVE, there's no place in EVE where one should ever get randomly put into a place where the player cannot influence the outcome.

Random disconnects and bugs are bad enough without them being designed into the game.

you know you've been posting the same thing about your rage against any randomness in where you wind up for ninety pages without really ever dealing with the reality that every gate in nullsec sticks you randomly on the edge of a large sphere and has for a decade

yet somehow we survive

Because local. you always jump a scout in first. difference between null and whs is you know in null for 100% certainty that there isnt a single soul in system.

you never, ever, ever know that in wh space.

so tell me again how null gates are like whs. its fascinating to see you display your exact level of intelligence so proudly.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Dalron
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#1799 - 2014-09-03 12:22:52 UTC
Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.

Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.

Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.

Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.

Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.

We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1800 - 2014-09-03 12:36:17 UTC
Dalron wrote:
Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.

Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.

Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.

Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.

Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.

We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.


Certainly looking like long term it is going to be cyclic occupation mixed in with power blocs, basically a step towards all that is wrong with nullsec.