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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1701 - 2014-08-28 16:19:02 UTC
CivilWars wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
CivilWars wrote:
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.


what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.


In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react.
After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place.
So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight.

However,
with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank

If my goal is to find ganks then I have much better odds finding ratting ishtars, battleships, and carriers in null sec than I ever will in w-space. I lived in w-space for "good fights", not saying that I wouldn't take ganks that crossed my path, and based on my personal experience and first had accounts by friends that still live in w-space the "good fights" are few and far between. People screaming that w-space needs more isk, so more farmers join, so they can farm said farmers are as much a part of the problem with w-space as CCP.


not trying to aruge with you mate, all Im saying is that people who come into your wh with the intention to close off the connection, are certainly not going to give you a good fight. So whats the benefit of the change?
CivilWars
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1702 - 2014-08-28 16:30:44 UTC
Enthropic wrote:
CivilWars wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
CivilWars wrote:
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.


what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.


In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react.
After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place.
So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight.

However,
with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank

If my goal is to find ganks then I have much better odds finding ratting ishtars, battleships, and carriers in null sec than I ever will in w-space. I lived in w-space for "good fights", not saying that I wouldn't take ganks that crossed my path, and based on my personal experience and first had accounts by friends that still live in w-space the "good fights" are few and far between. People screaming that w-space needs more isk, so more farmers join, so they can farm said farmers are as much a part of the problem with w-space as CCP.


not trying to aruge with you mate, all Im saying is that people who come into your wh with the intention to close off the connection, are certainly not going to give you a good fight. So whats the benefit of the change?


The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.

Hidden Fremen liked your forum post:

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Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1703 - 2014-08-28 16:41:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Enthropic
CivilWars wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
CivilWars wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
CivilWars wrote:
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.


what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.


In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react.
After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place.
So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight.

However,
with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank

If my goal is to find ganks then I have much better odds finding ratting ishtars, battleships, and carriers in null sec than I ever will in w-space. I lived in w-space for "good fights", not saying that I wouldn't take ganks that crossed my path, and based on my personal experience and first had accounts by friends that still live in w-space the "good fights" are few and far between. People screaming that w-space needs more isk, so more farmers join, so they can farm said farmers are as much a part of the problem with w-space as CCP.


not trying to aruge with you mate, all Im saying is that people who come into your wh with the intention to close off the connection, are certainly not going to give you a good fight. So whats the benefit of the change?


The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.


well I guess youre trolling me, but I will bite.

the point is, nobody will jump their moros through for you to catch it. They will instead choose not to roll and log.

you have not lost or gained, except for the time when you need to roll, because you know, a tower needs to be fueled from time to time, or you want to jump on an escalation fleet, or.. insert other reasons to roll a hole..
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1704 - 2014-08-28 16:48:50 UTC
Saisin wrote:
calaretu wrote:


If they are not on wormhole, why not take in a cloaky hauler and anchor drag bubbles? And then when they come to remove them jump sniping nados with mjd. Snipe jump back home and mjd away. Or something else that may actually work. You are acting like its pre-hyperion when you know its not. No pity from me in this matter. Both you and tlc have better pilots than acting like a standoff is the only alternative.

Exactly... and even a standoff still allows to farm in the wh while closely watching the neighbor... it is not like the only option is to log off...


Do you think we have unlimited sites in the systems or something? you get to do them once a day, sometimes only 1 or 2 sites.
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#1705 - 2014-08-28 17:56:44 UTC
This is really simple, but people keep making it complicated. Any change to wormholes should have the effect of encouraging more people to move into wormholes than people who will want to leave wormholes, because what we really want is more targets.

So lets take a look at this one change. So far, we have lots of people who have moved out, and more who are moving out everyday. Where is the incentive to move in? How many people who didn't live in w-space pre-Hyperion are itching to move in now BECAUSE of these changes?
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1706 - 2014-08-28 18:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Valenthe de Celine
Oh, quick show of hands, if I may? How many alliances have anyone outside their alliance set as blue when in WH space?

I know of only one group for my alliance, and they are light blue, so it's more of a suggestion than a rule. If I catch them in my WH afk, they are still getting a wake-up lovetap from a Proteus. If that doesn't make 'em run, or speak, or react, they may get back to see their corpse floating in space. I have no need for afk miners in my hole, cause no one else would show them mercy in that situation.

Edit: Only bother to answer if you are a wormhole corp. No one else really matters for this as it's a straw pull for this one sector of space everyone keeps claiming is so safe.
scotayne hawkins
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1707 - 2014-08-28 23:57:12 UTC
Firstly, TLC is considered a large corp within w-space we have about 250+ toons with about 90 RL guys, so we are'nt small. last night due to the wh changes we had a little scrap on the static during closing, t3's with plates spawning 14km+ from the wh, bhaal's spawning 10-13km and triage appeared 13km.

end result couple kills couple losses and my team was happy oh and big thanks to TDSN for bring a fight.

anyways 15min brawl with traige for both sides as triage slowly burnt back into jump range during triage. next hole connection was noho. 35 guys logged off not entirely sure if that hole got rolled by noho for their own means but i know my guys at that time of day had little to no chance in wining a fight against their bhaal fleet plus capital options in their home system.

my concern is this:

if my corp can't roll away from a much larger more organised force the smaller groups are screwed and more selfishly i'm concerned how long my guys will put up with connecting to such hostile systems and the options are lets go play something else.

during the town hall meeting i asked fozzie if he was going to answer questions or continue to deflect the questions, he seemed to be a bit butt hurt over this comment.

so my only response is how many GTC is purchased by w-space based pilots so if thee guys lose their interest in w-space due to this effect how long will it take before another 45 (much loved i might add) dev's are given marching orders due to another blind short sighted decision by CCP.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#1708 - 2014-08-29 02:03:35 UTC
Chandoraa wrote:
From the posts that I have read, it would appear that the major issue that people here relates to smaller groups that live in higher class wormholes, not being able to "safely" roll or crit holes when they want to roll away from a larger group or to PvE. This will have a knock on effect reducing content for everyone in wormhole space, which results in people leaving wormhole space or even worse the game itself.

I kind of understand why CCP have made this change, but the implementation of the change and response to constructive feedback has not been great. My suggestion to try and satisfy everyone would be to reduce the ranges at which people spawn from the wormhole and have a laid out chance base system, maybe based upon this:

Pod/Zephyr: 100% chance of spawning <5KM
Frigate: 90% chance of spawning <5km / 10% chance of spawning >5km<6km
Cruisers: 80% chance of spawning <5km / 20% chance of spawning >5km<7km
Battleships: 70% chance of spawning <5km / 30% chance of spawning >5km<8km
Orca: 60% chance of spawning <5km / 40% chance of spawning >5km<9km
Capitals: 50% chance of spawning <5km / 50% chance of spawning >5km<10km

I think that this follows the unpredictable nature of wormholes, with every ship having a chance of spawning within 5km but an increasing probability of spawning outside jump range depending on mass, with the heaviest ships having a maximum of 5km to chug before being able to jump back, but I think that is still more than enough to install an element of risk in rolling.

Another quick thought. With the above CCP could then bring out a module that increases the chance of spawning closer to the wormhole, or a skill that does something similar?

Thanks for your time, I hope that this gets sorted soon.


Let's stop being a chump about this - our C2 is less manageable guy.
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#1709 - 2014-08-29 14:39:55 UTC
Sorry for my noobiness ,can you guys please explain me this one? How was it safe to get locked for farming before Hyperion if there were always guys rage rolling just to find a sieged/triaged cap, or battleships, or whatever "bear" (since nobody in this game had to make isk, only the nasty farmers) and there are plenty killboards to prove that?
(Which by the way just became more annoying for the rage rollers)

Number two. Who in sane mind will do sites with 6 open holes, of which 3 are frig-only, when somebody just invades in an anathema and pops your static and there goes the alleged safety?

Number three. Will caps become a null/lowsex exclusive thing, since we won't be YOLOing them anymore, and cap escalations Are meant to be nerfed/removed?

Finally
CCP, WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE DUSETTES? ????

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
#1710 - 2014-08-29 15:41:00 UTC
Rei Moon wrote:
Sorry for my noobiness ,can you guys please explain me this one? How was it safe to get locked for farming before Hyperion if there were always guys rage rolling just to find a sieged/triaged cap, or battleships, or whatever "bear" (since nobody in this game had to make isk, only the nasty farmers) and there are plenty killboards to prove that?
(Which by the way just became more annoying for the rage rollers)

Number two. Who in sane mind will do sites with 6 open holes, of which 3 are frig-only, when somebody just invades in an anathema and pops your static and there goes the alleged safety?

Number three. Will caps become a null/lowsex exclusive thing, since we won't be YOLOing them anymore, and cap escalations Are meant to be nerfed/removed?

Finally
CCP, WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE DUSETTES? ????


CCP already stated that escalations never were meant to be farmed. They are there to prevent people warping in capitals.
God knows why it was not fixed in time. Maybe ccp likes to be in the news with super big fights?

It just goes over the top that people who farmed that over a long time are getting bored of their richness, just log in for the pew and even get changes implemented which opens up all other wh space, so they can easier "take" content.

Doing all this on the back of people who probably pay their account by cash and call em bears and so on...
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#1711 - 2014-08-29 16:10:04 UTC
umnikar wrote:
Rei Moon wrote:
Sorry for my noobiness ,can you guys please explain me this one? How was it safe to get locked for farming before Hyperion if there were always guys rage rolling just to find a sieged/triaged cap, or battleships, or whatever "bear" (since nobody in this game had to make isk, only the nasty farmers) and there are plenty killboards to prove that?
(Which by the way just became more annoying for the rage rollers)

Number two. Who in sane mind will do sites with 6 open holes, of which 3 are frig-only, when somebody just invades in an anathema and pops your static and there goes the alleged safety?

Number three. Will caps become a null/lowsex exclusive thing, since we won't be YOLOing them anymore, and cap escalations Are meant to be nerfed/removed?

Finally
CCP, WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE DUSETTES? ????


CCP already stated that escalations never were meant to be farmed. They are there to prevent people warping in capitals.
God knows why it was not fixed in time. Maybe ccp likes to be in the news with super big fights?

It just goes over the top that people who farmed that over a long time are getting bored of their richness, just log in for the pew and even get changes implemented which opens up all other wh space, so they can easier "take" content.

Doing all this on the back of people who probably pay their account by cash and call em bears and so on...


The ability to run escelations, is what make it possible for groups to get of some size in wspace too. If you remove escelations, a c5/c6 wouldn't support as many players really. And for those interested in more pvp oriented content, rolling static is more about find something to blow up than to grind pve.

Not everyone in c5/c6 is space rich. and the prospect of lose your ships running an escelation when someone dial into you carries a considerable cost too. In the terms of the cost of the tools you field vs what you actually gain. It's not that much.
Beside replacing loss's in pvp cost as well.

I know some players running incursion with alts to supplement income to cover habbits living in wspace. If you want to look at isk being spent on plex's I would think incursion cover more of that than wspace tbh.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1712 - 2014-08-29 16:49:41 UTC
Ruffio Sepico wrote:
umnikar wrote:
CCP already stated that escalations never were meant to be farmed. They are there to prevent people warping in capitals.
God knows why it was not fixed in time. Maybe ccp likes to be in the news with super big fights?

It just goes over the top that people who farmed that over a long time are getting bored of their richness, just log in for the pew and even get changes implemented which opens up all other wh space, so they can easier "take" content.

Doing all this on the back of people who probably pay their account by cash and call em bears and so on...

The ability to run escelations, is what make it possible for groups to get of some size in wspace too. If you remove escelations, a c5/c6 wouldn't support as many players really. And for those interested in more pvp oriented content, rolling static is more about find something to blow up than to grind pve.

Not everyone in c5/c6 is space rich. and the prospect of lose your ships running an escelation when someone dial into you carries a considerable cost too. In the terms of the cost of the tools you field vs what you actually gain. It's not that much.
Beside replacing loss's in pvp cost as well.

I know some players running incursion with alts to supplement income to cover habbits living in wspace. If you want to look at isk being spent on plex's I would think incursion cover more of that than wspace tbh.

Okay, I see someone referring to "farming escalations" and I think some folks here don't understand that mechanic, so I'll explain a little. Intended or not, I know more active wormhole groups do this because of the low respawn rate in many C5 and C6 wormholes.

The mechanism is this: You enter a combat site and mark the trigger ship from a wave. You then do your standard starting escalation group (assuming this is a small group, not some 300 man corp) of 1 carrier, 1 dread, and 1 webbing loki. They cause an additional 14 or so sleeper BS to spawn. These are all killed. As the number of BSes drops, a second dread (or several, as you only get 2 escalation waves per site per capital type) warp in. As the numbers of escalation BSes drop, a second carrier is brought in, maybe with some subcap support ships to clear unnecessary frigates or cruisers, leaving the trigger ship intact. Once down to just that trigger, the site gets salvaged, with one carrier supporting the Noctis to prevent that final sleeper from harming it. After that, the two ships leave the site, refitting as needed with warp core stabs.

The reason that one trigger ship is left alive is to prevent the site from being "completed" and thus having it despawn. This means that, after downtime, all the sleepers will be back and it can be escalated again. This can go on for several days, with several sites, and is an important adaptation for a busy C5 or C6 or there isn't enough PVE content generation in a week to last more than a day. This is a player workaround for all the inactive systems in a constellation not being used by anyone, to deal with the poor respawn rates and annoyance of not having content easily available.

The really large wormhole corps in C6s do this sort of thing a lot as new sites are probably very slow to appear, much less enough to support 100+ people in a single hole. The difference is that those 100+ people can also run around in PVP fleets right after all the PVE content is exhausted for the day, because all those "bearish tactics" like rolling your exits shut also happen to be the first step in starting a PVP ragerolling session. Go figure, eh? Security is important for any activity in a WH, not just PVE. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never lived and fought in one before.
Senji Vuran
The Black Star Elite
Coalition of Independent Corps
#1713 - 2014-08-29 17:41:24 UTC
umnikar wrote:


CCP already stated that escalations never were meant to be farmed. They are there to prevent people warping in capitals.
God knows why it was not fixed in time. Maybe ccp likes to be in the news with super big fights?



[Citation Needed]
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1714 - 2014-08-29 18:01:34 UTC
Ruffio Sepico wrote:

Not everyone in c5/c6 is space rich. and the prospect of lose your ships running an escelation when someone dial into you carries a considerable cost too. In the terms of the cost of the tools you field vs what you actually gain. It's not that much.
Beside replacing loss's in pvp cost as well.

I know some players running incursion with alts to supplement income to cover habbits living in wspace. If you want to look at isk being spent on plex's I would think incursion cover more of that than wspace tbh.




While its relatively easy to replace the tools of the trade and put a little aside for a rainy day you actually have to be somewhat motivated and put some effort in to make a lot of ISK from C5/6 sites as part of a medium to large corp.

If it was just about making ISK I'd be able to make more and a lot safer farming a certain k-space NPC faction with the characters and setup I have, it would also be mind numbingly boring.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1715 - 2014-08-31 00:09:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the changes to wormhole jump spawn distance that we proposed in our recently released dev blog.

I want to remind people that the best way to have your views heard is to state your case calmly, politely and with logical reasoning.

Whether you like this idea or don't like this idea, make sure to let us know exactly why you hold your opinion, with as much detail as possible.

:Edit: Update on August 16th:

Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.

We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).

The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk.
To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km.
At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.

This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.


“Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them"
—Einstein”

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#1716 - 2014-08-31 00:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Oh. My. Goodness.

I'm a wormholer, I don't like the WH jump distance change - in particular, I don't like the way it's been implemented.

*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

-1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1717 - 2014-08-31 00:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
JTK Fotheringham wrote:
Oh. My. Goodness.

I'm a wormholer, I don't like the WH jump distance change - in particular, I don't like the way it's been implemented.

*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

-1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.



I think it is more someone making a clear example of how the unintended instillation of the feeling of betrayal has unintended and significant consequences.

She/he is quite right.

Many people do feel a significant lavel of betrayal.

This may be wrong or unbalanced, but to them, it is real. And THAT matters.

It is CCP's job as a business not only to deal with the serious side effects introduced with this release, and now they also have to handle a PR disaster that is actually, for those affected greater than incarna.

Now wormholers are a different demographic, we do not scream, wail, and beat our chests.

It is MUCH more frightening for a business than that.

One simply ceases contact with those who wish to obtain payment for a service, and refuse to discuss and rectify problems.

Simple.

My fear is that CCP are so used to the screaming, they will not act until it is too late.

And many who love the game, imperfect as it is, will be gone forever. A loss for all.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1718 - 2014-08-31 04:00:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.

Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#1719 - 2014-08-31 05:52:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquila Sagitta
Just had an awesome fight with 1%

They're still possible!

[Still not advocating for this change just saying...]

Blue-Fire Best Fire
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#1720 - 2014-08-31 06:12:04 UTC
I vote we keep this change but remove local from the game too.

I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I--THE CAPACITOR IS EMPTY

Youtube: /asayanami

Twitter: @asayanami

wormholefundamentals.com