These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1361 - 2014-08-25 20:59:23 UTC
Rroff wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Why are you guys even feeding the goon troll?


Because most here are used to a much better quality of troll. to the point its difficult to recognise a standard troll :)

We should pay them in kind when the sov changes threads are up.
Mutual Assured Destruction AKA MAD.


Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol

point me at 'em when they come up and i'll strike them down just like I did here
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1362 - 2014-08-25 21:05:12 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:

I don't know what you're trying to do with your mechanics thing, but please do enlighten me as to your reasoning for going to the dude who knows nothing instead of the people who know what they're doing.

If I must use a simpler analogy for your mind, would you ask a 5 day old character who just joined EVE about supercapital tactics and titan fits? No, because they don't know what you're talking about. And neither does 99% of the Goonswarm posts in this thread.

the point is that you can't establish who has the authority from their alliance tag because that is not how authority works

we don't establish that mechanics have authority because they walk down the street wearing a sandwich board with "MECHANIC" drawn on the front in crayon, we establish it with facts and evidence

the "I have an alt in your corp" nonsense is to illustrate that allegiances in this game are not as cut and dried as your alliance tag

and, again, if I'm so out of touch with how wormhole space works, feel free to drop some hard facts on me proving my ignorance



Note;- we do not care. You are not relevant, you bring nothing relevant, repeat, we do not care.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1363 - 2014-08-25 21:06:50 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

You are not relevant, you bring nothing relevant, repeat, we do not care.

neither are you, seeing as you've given no proof that you know what the hell you're talking about
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1364 - 2014-08-25 21:11:26 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

You are not relevant, you bring nothing relevant, repeat, we do not care.

neither are you, seeing as you've given no proof that you know what the hell you're talking about



Read what is already written, rather than demanding it all be explained personally to you.

Come on the Goons have already got what you wanted, you won,you ****** up the game for others. just stop gloating.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1365 - 2014-08-25 21:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Faren Shalni
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
Why are you guys even feeding the goon troll?


Because most here are used to a much better quality of troll. to the point its difficult to recognise a standard troll :)

We should pay them in kind when the sov changes threads are up.
Mutual Assured Destruction AKA MAD.


No not really. null sec doesn't matter to us so commenting on null stuff is a waste of our time as we are not experts on it.

We are however experts in WH space and that is what we should discuss instead of some nullsecers credibility in this conversation as its quite frankly pointless.

Regarding Corbex's post +1 +1 +1

it echo's what everyone against this change has been saying and will continue to say

Edit: some spelling errors

So Much Space
Siliya
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1366 - 2014-08-25 21:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Siliya
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.

I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.



this is the biggest load of crap I have seen in a while however I have come to expect nothing less from you sir
you have been told by us AND your CSM that this is a bad Idea and we dont want it ... tyou have been given Reasons in this forum and PAGES Long emails from your Wormhole CSM on this issue
it has become blatantly obvious to us that your intent is to Whip it out and Hose the players, your CSM and the pages upon pages of feedback all down while you laugh maniacally

youve said many times your players are smart .. well when we tell you things en-mass you ever think there may be a reason ?

and as for the nullsecers griefing this thread ... would you enjoy it if this change were applied to Cynos ?
Caps landing up to 14k from the Cyno ... Supers 18ish ?

every time this has been brought up nullsecers have shied away from it
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1367 - 2014-08-25 21:16:11 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
+1 to Corbex's post. Its pretty good reason why its a **** idea and why it will remain a **** idea. Rage rolling wont be affected risk wise since you can still role faster than they can catch you. It will however make rage rolling more of a pain in the ass then it is already and CCP obviously do not understand why we rage roll in the first place, and a hint btw it is not to do with ganking people.

This change WILL kill off a part of WH space, that is a fact and if you don't understand why then you shouldn't be in this thread in the first place.



This is a very good point and one i left out. Alot of people are assuming rage rolling is for finding pvp and only done for that reason. Rage rolling is often done for loads of reasons (finding pvp being one of them) but its also used to other stuff. like getting supplys in from hisec. Heaven forbid some one is leaving wh space and needs to move caps out. you know what rage roll to find exits. Hey we just when bhaals deep and got stuff stuck. rage roll to find them. We have caps to bring in and no entrance, rage roll.

There are loads of reasons to rage roll not just pvp. and for the bigger corps its not going to be more risky just more of a pain in the arse and time consuming. For smaller corps well your in a much worse state. so much worse I can see people leaving over it (which they have already started to)

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1368 - 2014-08-25 21:18:20 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

You are not relevant, you bring nothing relevant, repeat, we do not care.

neither are you, seeing as you've given no proof that you know what the hell you're talking about



Read what is already written, rather than demanding it all be explained personally to you.

Come on the Goons have already got what you wanted, you won,you ****** up the game for others. just stop gloating.

I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about

also I don't give a wet crap what goons want -- i speak for myself
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1369 - 2014-08-25 21:21:09 UTC
Go on i'll bite cos i'm bored

Promiscuous Female wrote:

I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about



Ok so you have read my post whats wrong with it or what don't you agree with, or do you agree with it?

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1370 - 2014-08-25 21:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Promiscuous Female wrote:

I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about

also I don't give a wet crap what goons want -- i speak for myself


All you proved is your versed in the theoretical mechanics and lack much knowledge of the practical mechanics - anyone with even a minimal amount of experience with the practical side knows that 3 caps will close the wh without any getting back for instance (not a method usually used for rolling unless your extracting/seeding).

For yet more examples of some of the more finer points see corbexx's post above.

EDIT: And thats largely what is wrong with this problem, it sounds like it should work in theory but to those of us with years of practical experience of it, its full of holes.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1371 - 2014-08-25 21:23:36 UTC
corbexx wrote:
right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.

So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.

ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.

Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.

If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.

Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.

Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.

Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.

Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.

If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.

You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.

TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.

I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me.


Agreed completly. This is exaclty reason why people hate this change.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1372 - 2014-08-25 21:25:07 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about

also I don't give a wet crap what goons want -- i speak for myself


All you proved is your versed in the theoretical mechanics and lack much knowledge of the practical mechanics - anyone with even a minimal amount of experience with the practical side knows that 3 caps will close the wh without any getting back for instance (not a method usually used for rolling unless your extracting).

For yet more examples of some of the more finer points see corbexx's post above.

you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means

why is this so difficult to do
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1373 - 2014-08-25 21:34:51 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
Promiscuous Female wrote:

you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means

why is this so difficult to do

Hard to disprove your argument when you have none, then there are none we can disprove.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Bleedingthrough
#1374 - 2014-08-25 21:35:41 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means

why is this so difficult to do


Maybe because this is not a "101- help the newbie" thread. These guys don't need to explain what is obvious for everyone living in w-space.

@Corbexx
I am sure you did what you can to prevent this brainfart from spawning upon us. If there is anything we can do to help you let us know.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1375 - 2014-08-25 21:37:42 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Go on i'll bite cos i'm bored

Promiscuous Female wrote:

I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about



Ok so you have read my post whats wrong with it or what don't you agree with, or do you agree with it?

your lengthy post, in general, has a fair assessment of how player behavior might change when the change goes through

however you are making a lot of assumptions on how people will react to things and I don't really agree with all of them but my opinions on how players will handle the change are similarly up in the air so I can't really concede or disagree meaningfully there

my main problem is that you're falling into the trap where refitting is some sacred cow that you are entitled to have -- it's difficult for me to sympathize with this (and, in fact, I would prefer that refitting be completely disallowed inside of the 15 minute aggression timer)

your proposed solution for controlling how far you appear from other people is basically garbage since no one in their right mind would jump through a wormhole at anything but the minimum required to land in refit, it's too optimizable and doesn't actually change anything

you're also warning of the dangers of people choosing to do nothing, which isn't really a danger

people are not required to prostate themselves towards your guns and allow you to destroy them, logging off is a valid option to deny you kills and make you go away

you end your post with another vague threat of unsubs, which is typical eve-o garbage which has never worked so I'm not sure why you bothered
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1376 - 2014-08-25 21:40:39 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means

why is this so difficult to do

Hard to disprove your argument when you have none, then there are none we can disprove.



Bleedingthrough wrote:
[quote=Promiscuous Female]
Maybe because this is not a "101- help the newbie" thread. These guys don't need to explain what is obvious for everyone living in w-space.


hey -- if you guys want to sabotage your chances of making any change in line with your own desires by deliberately withholding information from the very people you deride as not understanding how your infinitely subtle and complex game environment (lol) works, then continue shooting yourselves in the foot

hint: the people you are deriding are ccp, not me
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1377 - 2014-08-25 21:41:36 UTC
okay I guess you are deriding me too but my opinion matters a lot less than ccp's does
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1378 - 2014-08-25 21:54:00 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
corbexx wrote:
Go on i'll bite cos i'm bored

Promiscuous Female wrote:

I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about



Ok so you have read my post whats wrong with it or what don't you agree with, or do you agree with it?

your lengthy post, in general, has a fair assessment of how player behavior might change when the change goes through

however you are making a lot of assumptions on how people will react to things and I don't really agree with all of them but my opinions on how players will handle the change are similarly up in the air so I can't really concede or disagree meaningfully there

my main problem is that you're falling into the trap where refitting is some sacred cow that you are entitled to have -- it's difficult for me to sympathize with this (and, in fact, I would prefer that refitting be completely disallowed inside of the 15 minute aggression timer)

your proposed solution for controlling how far you appear from other people is basically garbage since no one in their right mind would jump through a wormhole at anything but the minimum required to land in refit, it's too optimizable and doesn't actually change anything

you're also warning of the dangers of people choosing to do nothing, which isn't really a danger

people are not required to prostate themselves towards your guns and allow you to destroy them, logging off is a valid option to deny you kills and make you go away

you end your post with another vague threat of unsubs, which is typical eve-o garbage which has never worked so I'm not sure why you bothered



ok first how long have you lived in wh space for and what class?.

Yes some of it is assumptions although alot of it is based of facts that happen now. So I'm very confident in them.

The bit about refitting is a fair comment and I will answer in a bit more depth. a few corps do go all in bhaals deep. now when this happens its normally in someones home system where you can be facing a huge cap disadvantage. being able to refit is key to being able to take these fights. the simple fact is without this people wont atempt them or at the very least will be way less likely. its not a case of "our right" its a case of hey we have a chance and hey we dont have a chance so wont risk it. which means less pvp.

the bit about proposed solution I find a bit harsh as numbers and stuff could be changed but if say you woudl be 30km from the wh. then this might lead to kiting fleets going for it. yeah it might not be used but it gives people the option. again its worth saying distances and stuff liek taht woudl need to be looked at so saying its bs without knowing any of these is a bit off.

as for people doing nothing and that not being a danger , it is iff people arent doing anything they arent risking anything and that defeats the whole point of this change.

Yes logging off and doing nothing is totally valid and denying me kills is fine but its defeating the point of this change, if people arent prepared to roll the wh cos its to risky why even change it. Having it so you can jump back attually gives smaller groups a chance to fight bigger groups by slamming the door in there face and limiting numbers to a level they can fight.

I didnt mention anything about unsubbing at all. I said people are leaving wh space several corps have already done this. one is also looking at leaving or merging.

but if you could please let me know the stuff about what wh's you have lived in and for how long.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1379 - 2014-08-25 22:26:05 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Rroff wrote:

Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol

point me at 'em when they come up and i'll strike them down just like I did here


Going to assume you haven't lived in wh space at this point So to plagiarize and this isn't a direct attack at you.

Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head.

I'll leave you now to go and strike them down in the comments on http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-unknown-virgins

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1380 - 2014-08-25 22:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Promiscuous Female wrote:
corbexx wrote:
Go on i'll bite cos i'm bored

Promiscuous Female wrote:

I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about



Ok so you have read my post whats wrong with it or what don't you agree with, or do you agree with it?

your lengthy post, in general, has a fair assessment of how player behavior might change when the change goes through

however you are making a lot of assumptions on how people will react to things and I don't really agree with all of them but my opinions on how players will handle the change are similarly up in the air so I can't really concede or disagree meaningfully there

my main problem is that you're falling into the trap where refitting is some sacred cow that you are entitled to have -- it's difficult for me to sympathize with this (and, in fact, I would prefer that refitting be completely disallowed inside of the 15 minute aggression timer)

your proposed solution for controlling how far you appear from other people is basically garbage since no one in their right mind would jump through a wormhole at anything but the minimum required to land in refit, it's too optimizable and doesn't actually change anything

you're also warning of the dangers of people choosing to do nothing, which isn't really a danger

people are not required to prostate themselves towards your guns and allow you to destroy them, logging off is a valid option to deny you kills and make you go away

you end your post with another vague threat of unsubs, which is typical eve-o garbage which has never worked so I'm not sure why you bothered



Hang on?
Did a goon just criticise the wormhole CSM's knowledge and experience?
Did she really say his idea was Basically garbage?

Wow.

Who knew, they were so knowledgable, they must have been planning the invasion for years.Roll

*shaking head*

Hey, this guy represents us, has listened, has years of wormhole experience.
He is respected by us all.
He knows our mood, and he knows his stuff.
Maybe you should listen a little and be grateful he took the time to explain things to you.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE