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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1301 - 2014-08-25 19:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Enthropic
edit
nvm, there is no point anyway
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1302 - 2014-08-25 19:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Syndiaan
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?

Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing.

the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster

a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE

the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor


if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out.

EDIT: And i misspoke, there is not just a chance the battleship is going to mass crit it without rolling it, it WILL mass crit it without rolling it.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1303 - 2014-08-25 19:09:53 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.

I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.


If you truly gave a **** you'd explain your reasoning and explain to the community which people on your staff spent time in wormholes instead of this bullshit hand-waving.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread


The fact that you went ahead with the mass changes proves that you are lying, and I don't know how much longer I want to play a game where the devs continually lie to the playerbase, especially after such things as T20 and Somer.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1304 - 2014-08-25 19:13:49 UTC
Syndiaan wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?

Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing.

the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster

a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE

the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor


if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out.

Most C5 holes: 10 battleships with MWD and most will close after the fleet jumps out and back. Sometimes the hole will close early, sometimes the hole won't be closed after this and more mass will be needed. But there you have it, 10 ships. Alternatively you could use 5 ships and wait between jumps for polarity to expire. As you want to jump things sequentially, it shouldn't add much time for 5 ships to do what 10 ships could.
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1305 - 2014-08-25 19:16:05 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?

Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing.

the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster

a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE

the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor


if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out.

Most C5 holes: 10 battleships with MWD and most will close after the fleet jumps out and back. Sometimes the hole will close early, sometimes the hole won't be closed after this and more mass will be needed. But there you have it, 10 ships. Alternatively you could use 5 ships and wait between jumps for polarity to expire. As you want to jump things sequentially, it shouldn't add much time for 5 ships to do what 10 ships could.


without a capital ship anchored you are just going to mass crit the hole 9/10 times.
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1306 - 2014-08-25 19:23:56 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?

Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing.

the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster

a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE

the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor


if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out.

Most C5 holes: 10 battleships with MWD and most will close after the fleet jumps out and back. Sometimes the hole will close early, sometimes the hole won't be closed after this and more mass will be needed. But there you have it, 10 ships. Alternatively you could use 5 ships and wait between jumps for polarity to expire. As you want to jump things sequentially, it shouldn't add much time for 5 ships to do what 10 ships could.


To do this properly you want to use a orca, other wise your well on your way to having to use a closing hic (which in wh terms mean you ****** up rolling)

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1307 - 2014-08-25 19:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
corbexx wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?

Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing.

the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster

a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE

the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor


if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out.

Most C5 holes: 10 battleships with MWD and most will close after the fleet jumps out and back. Sometimes the hole will close early, sometimes the hole won't be closed after this and more mass will be needed. But there you have it, 10 ships. Alternatively you could use 5 ships and wait between jumps for polarity to expire. As you want to jump things sequentially, it shouldn't add much time for 5 ships to do what 10 ships could.


To do this properly you want to use a orca, other wise your well on your way to having to use a closing hic (which in wh terms mean you ****** up rolling)


It's not the players or the HIC that ****** up rolling.

Sorry, I tried but it was just too tempting to resist.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1308 - 2014-08-25 19:30:53 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

there's plenty of meaning -- it makes the activity interdictable by those with sharp reaction times and good planning where it could not realistically be interdicted before

the consistency at which the risk is realized is not and will never be an issue here


The activity is already interdictable by those with sharp reaction times, good planning and the balls to go for it.

not when you're rage rolling

an established hole, sure
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1309 - 2014-08-25 19:33:38 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

there's plenty of meaning -- it makes the activity interdictable by those with sharp reaction times and good planning where it could not realistically be interdicted before

the consistency at which the risk is realized is not and will never be an issue here


The activity is already interdictable by those with sharp reaction times, good planning and the balls to go for it.

not when you're rage rolling

an established hole, sure


Why are you so against people rage rolling though?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1310 - 2014-08-25 19:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Promiscuous Female wrote:

not when you're rage rolling

an established hole, sure


Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best?

It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1311 - 2014-08-25 19:51:18 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

not when you're rage rolling

an established hole, sure


Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best?

It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works.


at least there is a window now

36 seconds is better than 0 seconds

or do you think that the window should be increased
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1312 - 2014-08-25 19:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Promiscuous Female wrote:

at least there is a window now

36 seconds is better than 0 seconds

or do you think that the window should be increased


A window at any cost? regardless of what else it might destroy?


EDIT: PS you want to post on your actual character?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1313 - 2014-08-25 19:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

not when you're rage rolling

an established hole, sure


Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best?

It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works.



Really it is like young teenagers trying to be sex councillors.
They have heard rumors of the mechanics, and one day might actually learn what's going on, probably mainly from pornography.
God help them the first time they try, a large dose of reality awaits.
Maybe they will have some ideas after being married and having actually lived it for a few years.


Besides all the null optimism is the belief that they will get tasty capitals stranded on the nullsec hole they can hot drop.
The shame is that the faith of the wormhole community has been destroyed for nothing and our lives just made painfully boring for no reason, and then they will find that those nullsec holes just never get rolled, and they will Never get the chance to drop a cap again.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1314 - 2014-08-25 19:55:59 UTC
right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.

So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.

ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.

Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.

If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.

Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.

Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.

Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.

Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.

If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.

You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.

TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.

I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1315 - 2014-08-25 19:57:21 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

not when you're rage rolling

an established hole, sure


Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best?

It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works.



Really it is like young teenagers trying to be sex councillors.
They have heard rumors of the mechanics, and one day might actually learn what's going on, probably mainly from pornography.
God help them the first time they try, a large dose of reality awaits.
Maybe they will have some ideas after being married and having actually lived it for a few years.

what a wonderfully vague response

really you could mean anything by this

feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1316 - 2014-08-25 20:03:52 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

at least there is a window now

36 seconds is better than 0 seconds

or do you think that the window should be increased


A window at any cost? regardless of what else it might destroy?


EDIT: PS you want to post on your actual character?

i am generally in favor of things that take no risk being changed to engender risk, yes

also this is my main -- really, even if it wasn't, I'm a goon, what more identifying information do you need
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1317 - 2014-08-25 20:04:29 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

not when you're rage rolling

an established hole, sure


Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best?

It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works.



Really it is like young teenagers trying to be sex councillors.
They have heard rumors of the mechanics, and one day might actually learn what's going on, probably mainly from pornography.
God help them the first time they try, a large dose of reality awaits.
Maybe they will have some ideas after being married and having actually lived it for a few years.

what a wonderfully vague response

really you could mean anything by this

feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass


What you do in the bedroom is entirely your affair.
I am pointing out that you know jackshit about wormholes and coming out with the most absurd ideas. Live in them a while and then your opinion might have some value when discussing changes to wormholes.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1318 - 2014-08-25 20:05:14 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

not when you're rage rolling

an established hole, sure


Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best?

It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works.



Really it is like young teenagers trying to be sex councillors.
They have heard rumors of the mechanics, and one day might actually learn what's going on, probably mainly from pornography.
God help them the first time they try, a large dose of reality awaits.
Maybe they will have some ideas after being married and having actually lived it for a few years.

what a wonderfully vague response

really you could mean anything by this

feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass


Pretty sure he is saying you are in a null sec corp and do null sec stuff and trying to contribute to an aspect of the game you don't even participate in.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1319 - 2014-08-25 20:05:37 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

what a wonderfully vague response

really you could mean anything by this

feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass


Did I miss a post where you gave a detailed explanation of why your for this change?, or even posting in this thread in the first place other than to try and stir people up? with all due/undue respect most of your posts seem to boil down to "it will increase risk duh!" while demonstrating only a vague knowledge of how the mechanics actually work in practise and missing some of the larger repercussions of the change due to missing the finer details.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1320 - 2014-08-25 20:06:03 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What you do in the bedroom is entirely your affair.
I am pointing out that you know jackshit about wormholes and coming out with the most absurd ideas. Live in them a while and then your opinion might have some value when discussing changes to wormholes.

[citation needed]