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[Hyperion] Incursion changes on Sisi now

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CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#181 - 2014-08-19 15:15:15 UTC
Dev blog thread can be found here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=367250

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Brutus Le'montac
#182 - 2014-08-19 18:46:01 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
you guys need to get together and work out a solution to that power creep, cuz those fits are just horrendously bling.


the solution for that is called WTM/TVP :)

Thought is dangerous; lack of thought, deadly!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#183 - 2014-08-19 23:54:17 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:


We are aware of the Antem and Vylade orbit ranges and the jamming amounts that mess with the overall balance.
The re-balance is meant to simply bring them more in line with the risk vs reward of the higher-tiered sites.

Currently, Scout sites on TQ don't reward enough and are under-utilised.
These upcoming changes should alleviate this somewhat.

The problem is that much jamming forces a Marauder fleet with bling. And people investing that much bling are going to want far greater rewards than you are offering. I will be very surprised if you create a significant upswing in total scout sites being run, though given how few are run currently you may get a nice percent increase. After all, 1 site a week to 2 sites is 100% increase.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#184 - 2014-08-20 09:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
CCP RedDawn wrote:

Currently, Scout sites on TQ don't reward enough and are under-utilised.
These upcoming changes should alleviate this somewhat.


But the changes don't do that, it is currently not worth the time to run them, with the changes it is even worse, since they just add a lot more issues than they fix(jamming, long range, insane EHP to kill per site considering having 3-4 dps on grid). They are even less accessible for newer players or random small gangs(by the jamming) after the changes and still are not worth the time to do.

I can't see the person that did the changes had a real concept in mind, I don't see any kind of reasonable selection of sansha hulls that gear sites to specific fleet formats or ranges or makes them attractive for newer players/smaller gangs. The VG changes 2.5 years ago where similar and only a lot of feedback from the community's that do the sites changed them for the better, later down the road. Back then I suggested to remove the Maras from the OTAs and move the hacking spot closer there and it did work and made the site useful again outside of high alpha setups. There is no reason to repeat that with Scouts, and the only real solution would be to start with a new concept draft about what this kind of sites should archive and geared to, then build new sites and then gather feedback from people that do Incursions for a long time to fine tune them.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#185 - 2014-08-20 10:33:29 UTC
One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:

We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.

Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.

So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.

With this new 6 week release cycle we can make this change now for Hyperion and monitor it after release. If we feel this is too much we will adjust it again ASAP. We are also starting with just Vanguards for testing and may expand this to other sites depending on how it goes.

Thanks again for all the feedback guys! :D

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#186 - 2014-08-20 11:19:21 UTC
I don't do incursions myself, but this seems like a quite a clever bit of balancing.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#187 - 2014-08-20 11:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
CCP FoxFour wrote:
One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:

We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.

Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.

So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.

With this new 6 week release cycle we can make this change now for Hyperion and monitor it after release. If we feel this is too much we will adjust it again ASAP. We are also starting with just Vanguards for testing and may expand this to other sites depending on how it goes.

Thanks again for all the feedback guys! :D



I'm critical to or hostile to most of the Incursion changes, but I think this is a positive decision.

I feel it should apply to lowsec as well.

Deep sovereign nullsec is actually a fairly safe place to run incursions. The dangerous places are busy low, non-sov null and contested or border areas of sovereign null.

This would allow fleets to bring 13 or 14 ships that are PVE oriented, plus one or two highly disruptive, purely PVP ships to incursions in contested space.


Edit: Start it with the 10 person sites as you have stated, better to test it in practice first, then adjust later if needed.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#188 - 2014-08-20 13:29:26 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:

We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.

Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.

So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.



That info should be linked in the thread about the changes.

Btw, 50% is to much in my opinion, 20-30% are a lot more reasonable to not end up with 200M+ per hour fleets in sov 0.0. Also this changes should be extended to AS, HQ and Low Sec sites.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#189 - 2014-08-20 13:33:53 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:

We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.

Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.

So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.



That info should be linked in the thread about the changes.

Btw, 50% is to much in my opinion, 20-30% are a lot more reasonable to not end up with 200M+ per hour fleets in sov 0.0. Also this changes should be extended to AS, HQ and Low Sec sites.


This is all a big test to see how it goes. We talked a fair bit about different numbers and such but couldn't all agree. This is why it's only for Vangaurds in null right now. Once we get a better feel for how things actually play out we will look at expanding to other sites and low sec. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Liz Rebecca
Garage Bagage
#190 - 2014-08-20 13:55:47 UTC
list of activities for low SP chars at Hi-sec
ordered by isk/hour profit:

1) vanguard sites
2) lvl 4 missions
3) blitz lvl 3 missions
4) ore/ice mining
5) mining missions
6) courier missions
.
.
.
xx) scout sites

read about the upcoming changes to scout sites and expected fast cruiser-sized small gang fleet setup
to counter a lot of sansha frigs and some cruisers with unchanged EM and thermal dmg.

I also expected that the scout site will be placed between lvl4´s and vanguards in terms of profit
because you need a small group and have to fly to the incursion location.

saw 20min videos of marauders + T2 logi setups for a 3,5mil ISK reward

kkthxbye

p.s.: not even if a zero was forgotten for the reward would i move away my marauders from my 5 lvl4 agent spot
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#191 - 2014-08-20 23:32:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:



I'm critical to or hostile to most of the Incursion changes, but I think this is a positive decision.

I feel it should apply to lowsec as well.

Deep sovereign nullsec is actually a fairly safe place to run incursions. The dangerous places are busy low, non-sov null and contested or border areas of sovereign null.

This would allow fleets to bring 13 or 14 ships that are PVE oriented, plus one or two highly disruptive, purely PVP ships to incursions in contested space.


Edit: Start it with the 10 person sites as you have stated, better to test it in practice first, then adjust later if needed.


True, it is nice to run deep in sov null, too bad I don't get to pick the time and place of the incursion. Last week it was on top of the EC- gate, one of the most heavily traveled nullsec systems. Half of goon-space is pocketed by NPC space, so fountain isn't a fun spot to run. Oh yeah, and then there's incursions on top of critical jump bridges, so even though we get to run them for a few days, we have to pop them as soon as the mothership spawns. Also bubbles suck. Also you have to be part of a nullsec alliance that has to put forth effort to hold their space, and you have to do your part to defend that space.

BUT.. having said all that, and knowing this will most benefit TEST, I do agree that lowsec should get the same change too, for all the exact same reasons.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2014-08-21 00:11:55 UTC
You should make scout sites have a less steep diminishing payout curve for additional pilots, this way they could be something for both small groups with elite ships or slightly bigger groups of noobs who want to run incursions.
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2014-08-21 03:05:45 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Hope you enjoy and thanks for the feedback guys.




So you went to the CCP Fozzie school of design, ask for feedback, then ignore it?

Everyone has said the payouts are too low for the time/investment required of the new scout sites.
Ignored: Isk payout is the same as OP, and LP is below even the lowest feedback responses

Everyone has said, "too much jamming"
Ignored: Jamming is the same as OP, that amount of jamming and you really expect people to bother?

Thanks for spitting in the face of the people that took the time to test these sites and report back.

Thanks for ignoring what the player base thinks, yet again...

Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll.
Annie Getyourgun
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#194 - 2014-08-21 17:30:51 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:

We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.

Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.

So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.



That info should be linked in the thread about the changes.

Btw, 50% is to much in my opinion, 20-30% are a lot more reasonable to not end up with 200M+ per hour fleets in sov 0.0. Also this changes should be extended to AS, HQ and Low Sec sites.


This is all a big test to see how it goes. We talked a fair bit about different numbers and such but couldn't all agree. This is why it's only for Vangaurds in null right now. Once we get a better feel for how things actually play out we will look at expanding to other sites and low sec. :)


Just to confirm this is for both SOV and NPC NULL?
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#195 - 2014-08-21 18:20:22 UTC
Annie Getyourgun wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:

We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.

Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.

So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.



That info should be linked in the thread about the changes.

Btw, 50% is to much in my opinion, 20-30% are a lot more reasonable to not end up with 200M+ per hour fleets in sov 0.0. Also this changes should be extended to AS, HQ and Low Sec sites.


This is all a big test to see how it goes. We talked a fair bit about different numbers and such but couldn't all agree. This is why it's only for Vangaurds in null right now. Once we get a better feel for how things actually play out we will look at expanding to other sites and low sec. :)


Just to confirm this is for both SOV and NPC NULL?


We do not differentiate between the two for Incursions. So yes, for both.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#196 - 2014-08-22 01:29:03 UTC
I definitely like the idea of buffing incursions in nullsec, as given the enhanced risks involved and the concomitant decline in bling, without such buffs the incursions won't be worth running. Even so, I think that what is crucial is making nullsec incursions significantly more profitable than afk ratting in a carrier in safe sov null, as when that occurs we should see some of the ratters migrate to nullsec incursion running. To accomplish that ultimately I think there will need to be enhanced ISK and LP payouts, but the 15 man VG change is certainly welcome.
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#197 - 2014-08-22 13:57:39 UTC
Just a quick update that Team Space Glitter are reading this feedback and we have noticed a lot of mentions about jamming concerns. We are looking into some possible solutions to this (both rewards increase and jamming decrease) but we would like to wait and see how it runs on TQ for a few days and watch the metrics and come up with an ideal solution after that. We will update this thread with any plans we have to adjust the scout sites along with any relevant data the metrics show us :)

Thanks so much for your feedback so far, it's incredibly useful for us

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

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Team Astro Sparkle
Liz Rebecca
Garage Bagage
#198 - 2014-08-22 16:26:52 UTC
congratulations

from the perspective of low SP-players you have changed the
manageable but unprofitable scout sites to
unmanageable and unprofitable scout sites.
Yasharlee Aylown
Critical Pressure
Sleeper Protocol
#199 - 2014-08-22 23:57:42 UTC
Liz Rebecca wrote:
congratulations

from the perspective of low SP-players you have changed the
manageable but unprofitable scout sites to
unmanageable and unprofitable scout sites.



totally agree,

I was using scout missions for turn on newbies into fleet and let them know, how incursions and fleeting looks like. After I have read this experiences from other players, I can say CCP has killed this "jumping portal" to build comunity of new players with crazy requirements to run this sites.

It will be good, when the "Scout" missions are made for frigs to cruisers so newbies can use ship thay can fly. As I read about "marauders", I was just laughing again.

HOW YOU WILL BUILD COMUNITIES IN FUTURE, WHEN YOU ARE DESTROYING THE BASIC STONES????

just few question to think about:
- if newbie learn to fly logi frigate, it is not obvious to give him a reason to learn cruiser for future harder incursions?
- how you can teach new players to be active, when you re setting goals so high at beginning?
- do something for newbies, otherwise EVE will be full of alts
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#200 - 2014-08-23 16:48:05 UTC
Yasharlee Aylown wrote:
Liz Rebecca wrote:
congratulations

from the perspective of low SP-players you have changed the
manageable but unprofitable scout sites to
unmanageable and unprofitable scout sites.



totally agree,

I was using scout missions for turn on newbies into fleet and let them know, how incursions and fleeting looks like. After I have read this experiences from other players, I can say CCP has killed this "jumping portal" to build comunity of new players with crazy requirements to run this sites.

It will be good, when the "Scout" missions are made for frigs to cruisers so newbies can use ship thay can fly. As I read about "marauders", I was just laughing again.

HOW YOU WILL BUILD COMUNITIES IN FUTURE, WHEN YOU ARE DESTROYING THE BASIC STONES????

just few question to think about:
- if newbie learn to fly logi frigate, it is not obvious to give him a reason to learn cruiser for future harder incursions?
- how you can teach new players to be active, when you re setting goals so high at beginning?
- do something for newbies, otherwise EVE will be full of alts


This so much. I have 1-2 friends I used to take along with me in WHs and scout sites as T1 logis/gas miners and we had a lot of fun, but now you're just upping the requirements on EVERYTHING.