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Dev blog: Size Matters: Introducing Burner Missions

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Ynef
Skill Extraction Slavery
#221 - 2014-08-15 08:35:09 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
OK a few more thoughts now that I can spend some time writing them up.

Firstly, the audience for these missions and for existing L4 missions won't overlap very much.

L4 mission dabblers usually focus on battleship skills, L4 grinders on Marauders or HACs.

Those skills do not translate much to flying frigates. And those with good frigate skills don't often crosstrain into battleships.

I'm actually in the minority that has decent (A-) Marauder skills, very solid (A to A+) HAC skills and decent (A-) Assault Frigate skills, mainly because when I was newer, I wanted tech 2 battleship guns, and tech 2 Cruiser and Frigate guns were prerequisites for that back then - this is no longer true.

This means that standard level 4 missions should not be a prerequisite for these Burner Missions. At all. (Likewise I see no reason for burner missions to be prerequisites for L4 missions either, but the proposal doesn't have that in it).


Secondly, these pose an opportunity to have something additional in lowsec that's worth fighting over.

Mordrus belt spawns led to more activity in lowsec belts and more fights. These missions could do so even better - bringing together players in ISK generating activities in specific locations that are carried out in PVP fitted ships.



My suggestions:

- Keep these as rare offerings from existing L4 agents. No penalty for declining them. This is to give carebears an opportunity to try something different - something they may just like.

- Add them to the L5 rotation as well, for something different to do.

- Add specialist 'burner agents' to a small number of locations in lowsec, with some in the quietest areas of low (non-FW Placid, Solitude). These would offer burner missions all day, every day and would not offer anything else, but would follow normal rules for declining missions. Put some of these agents in places where the burner objective could be in either lowsec or nullsec, and (different) agents where the objective could be in either highsec or lowsec, and maybe have some that are always in low.

- Add about 10 more restricted burner agents to highsec. These would be new L4 agents that would offer only one burner mission per 18 hours. Accept or decline as you see fit, you don't get another chance to use that agent until the time expires.

- These missions should take place over a wider geographical area than most missions do. Travelling 6j for one of these isn't onerous as you will be in a frigate. Again, this gets players into areas that are unfamiliar and new, and often will send highsec players into lowsec in a ship they can afford to lose.

- Work on level 3 versions of these for the future as well. Something a bit easier and less rewarding for lowskilled players that want practice against competent but not brilliant opposition. These burners would fly assault frigates or destroyers with tech 2 fits, mostly '4' skills, and no offgrid boosters.


My thoughts exactly.

The 10 highsec agents could also be linked on a global cool down but maybe 4 hours.


Trevor Eve
Doomheim
#222 - 2014-08-15 08:37:34 UTC

Something for frigate specialists....

... oh but you have to be able to fly a battleship or similar to get them.

??
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-08-15 09:02:49 UTC
David Kir wrote:
I would suggest making so that these NPCs have to be pointed.

They should be able to try to warp out when in difficulty (structure damage?).

Once the NPC warps off:

a) the mission is failed

b) the site collapses and re-spawns.

this would be too annoying, maybe some weird frigate mjd (no, you cant get it) that if you dont point make them blink away at 150km and repair damage.
Quote:
The true difference between PVE and PVP is that human opponents have a survival instinct, while NPCs don't: make NPCs fear for their lives, for once.

the true difference between pve and pvp is that one has sentient being behind the controls, you wont be able to do that till our computer overlords finally gain control.
Mark Prag
American Policy Institute.
#224 - 2014-08-15 09:04:48 UTC
About time new content was being introduced (not just old content getting a facelift), and I'm all for taking part of the 'test bed' on this for future things in the development pipeline, just a few things that I felt compelled to get off my chest.

1.) For people concerned with the 'Level 4 Mission Pool' caveat for these 'burner' missions. Looking at this from a dev's perspective, putting in a whole other 'burner agent' category to the preexisting garden variety Mining, RnD, Security, and Distribution agents wouldn't be a very efficient way to introducing this 'test' run... maybe later, when it's heralded as a great thing to do, and players as a whole want it to become a permanent fixture, sure, maybe it'll be the way to go, with those agents having a cool-down of say, 2 hours or so. [seriously, this option would be best, imho]

2.) I can see why CCP wants to add these types of missions in the Level 4 pool, though, as there's a chance for acquiring a dead-space mod. Most Dead-space mods would net a capsuleer anywhere from 20m on up to 200m ISK [in this case, a frigate Dead-space mod] depending on market conditions and the type of mod.... and if one really thinks about it, doing these and nothing but would destroy the frigate Dead-Space Mod market, so putting it for a cool-down would be a smart move.

3.) Everything that I've read heretofore seems to miss this part... it's not like it's a storyline mission, of which you have to run 16 missions to get a crack at one storyline for standing etc etc...... from my understanding [albeit limited as it is at times] was that you have a chance of pulling a 'burner' mission, just like pulling the higher tier level fours [e.g Dread Pirate Scarlet, Angel Extravaganza, Blockade]

4.) Target burner ship warping away if it's not pointed? Okay, only if eWar affects it like a real player ship. That would be the 'bee's knees' as my grandad would put it. Then it'd get our Carebears introduced to a more realistic frame of mind for what Eve Online truly is.... PvP.

5.) If it turns out that this is going to be a permanent fixture and the Nordic Gods at CCP decide that they want to give Carebears and ISK Hungry mongroloids more content in the form of Cruiser Burners, awesome... however the conversations and comments thus far about passkeys and the like reminds me too closely of DED Complexes that were able to be farmed for the exact same rewards [depending on the threat level of the complex]

Sure, this is Eve, and yes, it WAS completely complex and involved, but the changes that have occurred in the past two years leads me to believe that both the Devs and the CSM don't or won't want to put needless complicated mechanics into the game. Cases in point. Scanning, agent quality/standing/type missioning overhaul, PLEX Death in High Sec, standardization of missile nomenclature, standardization of implant nomenclature [this one much needed], Simplification of Skills names and trees to get/use equipment faster... all these literally off the top of my head.

TLDR? All the above in two sentences; I welcome this new content and challenge with a hopeful mindset. I also hope that CCP doesn't screw the pooch, so to speak, by poorly implementing the change and souring the idea for both vets and newcomers alike.

Mark Prag
Bedalla
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#225 - 2014-08-15 09:26:05 UTC
Excellent idea. The man or the team having this idea should get a bonus.

I LOL a little at people rushing into battleship for L4 - now they have to start training for frigates and their T2 to run this missions (if they want to).

Also, my thought on this. Why not replace (in time) most of the L4 with this kind of missions, up to battleship level?

.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#226 - 2014-08-15 09:30:18 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#227 - 2014-08-15 09:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Houm, look who's here... me.

No, not Ishtanchuk. I'm not going to run Level 4s yet, so I don't need her active. But I surely want to comment on these new missions.

The Good:
New missions!
New skilling possibilities (how are my frigate skills? Dunno.)
Frigate missions! They're fun. Park that fat ass one-man WMD and fly something that actually *zooms* through space again.
"PvP-esque" fits & tactics for new content, leave the old content alone. I suggested that ages ago.
Roll as part of the usual Level 4 roll -no farming. Very nice move. If you aren't running Level 4s as a career why should you be rewarded with Burner missions?

The Bad:
Only 5 missions with only 5 adversaries, which will be quickly fit and tactic optimized in a EVE Survival guide near you (does that site still exist, btw?).

The Don't Sell The Bear Skin Until It's Dead, or 1,000 ways CCP could FUBAR those missions:
They may send hisec players to lowsec -NO GOD! NO GOD PLEASE NO! NO! NO! NOOOO!
They roll up once in a blue moon or each 3 "storyline" missions -not enough frequency would make not worth to bother with them
They may send hisec players to lowsec -NO GOD! NO GOD PLEASE NO! NO! NO! NOOOO!
The payment is not worth losing time and ships for it -I'm not sure of how mcuh would be enough, but I expect soemthing better than the best-bountied Battleships
They may send hisec players to lowsec -NO GOD! NO GOD PLEASE NO! NO! NO! NOOOO!


TL;DR: What we know is mostly fine, but don't make those missions send hisec pilots to lowsec, thank you.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#228 - 2014-08-15 10:01:02 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
People will probably already workout the cookie-cutter setups for this missions before they go live. So for how long will this "new content" actually stay interesting to someone before it becomes the same boring grind like the rest of the missions?

The PvE content in this game is so bad that tweaking it with some small new additions like this is absolutely pointless in my opinion.



And its exactly like that in all games in history. You cannot avoid players from findign the weaknesses of the AI .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#229 - 2014-08-15 10:17:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
People will probably already workout the cookie-cutter setups for this missions before they go live. So for how long will this "new content" actually stay interesting to someone before it becomes the same boring grind like the rest of the missions?

The PvE content in this game is so bad that tweaking it with some small new additions like this is absolutely pointless in my opinion.



And its exactly like that in all games in history. You cannot avoid players from findign the weaknesses of the AI .


You cannot avoid player minmaxing their way of play, be it against the AI or against other players...
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#230 - 2014-08-15 10:19:47 UTC
Why not make them available through Bounty Offices?
PvE bounty hunter mission of some sort.
Difficulty lvl 1-5.
Some warp jammers needed, because prey may escape when low on HP.
Instead of grinding Lvl 4 for "burner mission" we could choose our target.
ISK and loot rewards only.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2014-08-15 10:21:23 UTC
Not going to ******* bother with these if I have to slog through that mind-numbing mission system, especially considering I have to train an alt if I want to do these regularly.

**** mission running. Not worth it for this.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Marc Durant
#232 - 2014-08-15 10:36:25 UTC
The main idea is good but is then fcked by how you get them; grinding normal lvl 4s using non-frigates. Make it a completely separate thing so that people can CHOOSE to go the normal "bigger is better" route OR go the "quality over quantity" one. As it is right now they'll just get declined by normal missions runners and people who'd WANT to do them cba to wade through the **** that is normal lvl 4 missions.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2014-08-15 10:48:10 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

many level 4 mission runners have high frig, HAC and BS skills and will want to run these.


And if they don't there is nothing to stop them buffing them up for these
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2014-08-15 11:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
another few points here:

First for those saying 'Only 5 missions?' I have the feeling this is kind of a trial to test the hunger for such things alongside testing the implementation of it. This is introducing a means of giving out anew type of mission (needed for *any* other new types of mission) with better AI implemented (can be extended to many other new missions) and is not stopping people running the old missions (to stop people exploding with incandescent fury...though that could be fun to watch).

Standings: I have never yet run a level IV mission, yet I have standings for them with several agents. Grinding missions is not the only way to increase standings, use researchers, use the storyline missions, use the epic arcs and cosmos missions. Hell you can even use all of the starter career agentsfor dull yet useful standings boosts.

Regarding peoplelearning how to beat the missions: This will happen and it is the nature of all computer games from waaaay back. Doesn't mean it's bad and with these missions if you make a mistake there is a much better chance of losing your ship (hopefully).

Bring them on I say :) And maybe start looking at chaining them into other missions for reandomly generated mission arcs.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2014-08-15 11:02:52 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
The main idea is good but is then fcked by how you get them; grinding normal lvl 4s using non-frigates. Make it a completely separate thing so that people can CHOOSE to go the normal "bigger is better" route OR go the "quality over quantity" one. As it is right now they'll just get declined by normal missions runners and people who'd WANT to do them cba to wade through the **** that is normal lvl 4 missions.


Just a thought, invite a corp member who specialises in frigs to run it and provide some logistics for them...just for something different to do
Trevor Eve
Doomheim
#236 - 2014-08-15 11:26:54 UTC
Mark Prag wrote:


2.) I can see why CCP wants to add these types of missions in the Level 4 pool, though, as there's a chance for acquiring a dead-space mod. Most Dead-space mods would net a capsuleer anywhere from 20m on up to 200m ISK [in this case, a frigate Dead-space mod] depending on market conditions and the type of mod.... and if one really thinks about it, doing these and nothing but would destroy the frigate Dead-Space Mod market, so putting it for a cool-down would be a smart move.


Yup, adding them to the general level 4 is absolutely the only way they could limit farming.

No possible way they could have done it without forcing people to do battleship missions too.

*I apologise for any damage I may have done to any sarcasm meters*
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#237 - 2014-08-15 11:27:37 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
I do L4s and I'd do frigate missions any day, (in fact I would rather do them if they earn isk). Demographic doesn't matter, people use BSes out of necessity, not out of "loving using BSes only"

exactly. i'd love to just jump in a frigate and do a few of these missions.

although having to trudge through l4s to get them, means i won't. instead i'll skip them and keep trudging through l4s in my certainly not frigate mission ship.


You must be running missions in somewhat suboptimal way if you use only and only one BS for these. I already have a number of frigates for number of current L4 missions that are best done in these. You know, Recon 1 and Recon 2, the one for picking up cargo, Recon 3 is best done in nano cruiser usually.

Right tool for the job and all that.

Just taking another ship is much faster than refitting the ship you are flying.

Now I can understand the complaint about not being able to do only and only these. However if you want to do only these (and dont care all that much about isk/h) you can just grab a frigate and run around the region poking at agents until they give you one.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#238 - 2014-08-15 11:30:08 UTC
Trevor Eve wrote:
Mark Prag wrote:


2.) I can see why CCP wants to add these types of missions in the Level 4 pool, though, as there's a chance for acquiring a dead-space mod. Most Dead-space mods would net a capsuleer anywhere from 20m on up to 200m ISK [in this case, a frigate Dead-space mod] depending on market conditions and the type of mod.... and if one really thinks about it, doing these and nothing but would destroy the frigate Dead-Space Mod market, so putting it for a cool-down would be a smart move.


Yup, adding them to the general level 4 is absolutely the only way they could limit farming.

No possible way they could have done it without forcing people to do battleship missions too.

*I apologise for any damage I may have done to any sarcasm meters*


You do not need to do the "battleship missions for these", hell you do not even need to own the BS to do these. Frigates are pretty damn fast after the warp speed changes so moving around until you get one of these is quite viable. Now if you want to drag whole supply train with you then that can be a bit trickier but nanoed up T3 booster can be still made to sort of not fall too far behind a frigate over the short distances.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#239 - 2014-08-15 11:40:54 UTC
I'm just wondering what the connection is between these frigates and burning man (25 Aug)

would go with my roomies who attend every year, but school. I can celebrate burning man in EVE?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Optimo Sebiestor
The New Eden School of trade
Organization of Skill Extracting Corporations
#240 - 2014-08-15 11:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Optimo Sebiestor
And here i thougth "yay some fun pve content i can do in lowsec, while not pvp'ing".. But noooo, you want to force me to do regular lvl 4 missions to get these missions. Those really boring and mind numbing boring ****** missions. Talk about dissapointing...