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Dev blog: Size Matters: Introducing Burner Missions

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Author
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#241 - 2014-08-15 11:53:38 UTC
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:
And here i thougth "yay some fun pve content i can do in lowsec, while not pvp'ing".. But noooo, you want to force me do regular lvl 4 missions to get to these. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!


You can do regular L4 missions in a frigate also in low sec. Just assign fighters to it and hover around the docking range keeping one eye on your carrier so it does not get bumped off.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#242 - 2014-08-15 11:58:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I definitely understand the desire of many people to be able to run these missions at will, but unfortunately these missions will simply be too good to make them available all the time. I really like the idea of doing something with long cooldowns like the epic arcs in a future iteration, thanks for that feedback.

I like the concept of Burner Missons, but please don't just add them to pop up randomly from the L4 mission pool.

Please consider either to introduce special Burner Mission agents (we already have Epic and COSMOS agents, so why not a new type?) or add a button "Request Burner Mission" to L4 agents to give these new missions exclusively. Use a cooldown to balance how often such a misson can be done (you could grey out the request button and even give a timer).

When I used to run L4 missions - like probably most other players - I used a specific battleship fit that worked well, was easy to adjust with regard to damage, tank and EWAR and was something I enjoyed flying while grinding the missions. The aim was to get a decent ISK/hr output - I mean lets face it: after running L4s for months, most people won't do them if it were "just for fun". But in this kind of a scenario getting a Burner Mission instead of a regular L4 is a speedbump - maybe even an annoyance. Because you need to get away from your comfort zone, you need to get a frigate ready, exclusively fitted to fight this unique (more or less) enemy. (Sure, I can reject them... but they are rare and I do want to do them. It's just that I want to do them when I am ready for them.)

And after running a huge amount of L4 mission - again like probably many other players - I stopped doing them. Because one day I realized I would prefer doing the dishes and other housework in RL over running another L4 mission. And frankly, I would like to not run (regular) L4s again, if it can be avoided. But I really would like to try Burner Missions on the live server.

So puhleeeaze.... *gives bambi eyes*. Big smile
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#243 - 2014-08-15 12:35:31 UTC
Loki Vice wrote:
I was excited for these, missions for PvP players to make money who can't be assed to train for garbage battleships to run normal level 4s. but I have to run those same garbage missions just to get the chance of getting these?

5/10 CCP, good idea, shotty implementation.


Have you read the dev post properly? Then you would have realized that you don't, and instead only need to fly around a little bit.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Bradstone
Caldari Advanced War Technologies
#244 - 2014-08-15 12:36:11 UTC
This is a brilliant idea. I will be giving these a go for sure.
I've always thought it was unrealistic having one dude take on an entire pirate fleet. Pirate

How about making the missions timed like Story Lines? have a burner mission after every 14th normal one?

Remove loads of hints on the mission screen, give us only the targets name and maybe his ship type.

Make them like Sleepers, attacking you with your weakest (or second weakest depending on weapon system) dmg type.

Perhaps the pirate can deploy sentries to help him, like NOS towers.

This will really boost the use of Frigates. I have already brought mine and fitted it ready!
It will be use a blessing to use smaller ships we have all maxed the skills for but never used.


Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#245 - 2014-08-15 12:45:14 UTC
Destroyer Chappy wrote:


How many missions in a row can you reject before standing drops below minimums?


With proper blitz standings (like my 9 point something Gallente Faction Standing). Hundreds

Quote:

Maybe CCP needs to adjust standings drops to escalate with more and more back to back mission rejections.


It have to be a super huge drop to matter.

Quote:

Correct me if I am wrong (like that won't happen LOL)...

But even without that -- won't prolonged farming via rejecting missions to get just burner mission permanently kill off access to specific agents?

If I remember right, once standing with a specific agent drops below minimum to use them you cannot earn it back. You are blocked by that agent forever.
(First use is "no standing" with agent and current NPC corp standing is used instead. First mission completion sets agent to minimum needed plus standing gain for that first mission.)

If that is true then I think prospective farmers can reject only about 75% of missions if avoiding agent burn out. Smart farmers can at best accept easily blitzed missions with high standing rewards when sorting out which mission can be rejected and which must be done.


The way I do it is I have 3 characters with high standings. I blitz with 2 and when an agent gets to the cut off (-2.00), i mission with the third toon (or a corp mate), they share standings, get me back above -2.00. After i get back above -2.00I might spend a weekend getting that agent's standings back up high via normal mission running. Then it's back to blitzing.

The key is the faction standing. Faction standing gives you access to ALL lvl 4 agents of that faction after a certain point, so I mission for corps with a lot of lvl 4 agents and ping-pong my back side off among them, only having to repair single agent standings every once in a while.

Hell, i've been known to pay a corp mate (who doesn't blitz and who does damn little else in EVE but mission run) to keep me fleeted up when while he does missions when i sleep (damn Aussies), i wake up the next day with isk, LP, and repair agent standings, (of course the isk I give him compensates him for it all).

Quote:

Bottomline: Maybe CCP will need to rebalance standing gains and losses for each non-burner mission. But if Burner mission frequency averages 1 in 12+ or worse then farmers will end up doing 3+ regular missions per burner mission. So in long run best farmer will average only 1 burner mission per 45 minutes or so (counting travel and other overhead).

P.S. Ooops! Handy storyline missions with the same NPC corp makes it much easier to reject more missions due to huge standing award. So location and luck would let some players farm pretty well for a long time.



As in poke,r luck has nothing to do with it if you know what you are doing lol.

The problem here is the age old problem of EVE PVE. CCP keeps taking new content into an old system and it just doesn't work. 'pro' mission runners are already figuring out how to exploit the hell out of this the exact same way people did (in very short time) with Incursions, Wormhole PVE and Faction Warfare. It would take a super massive overhaul of the way standings work to prevent the potential problem.


~What I would do~


The new missions should be stand alone content with cool down timers AND (and this is the important part) wormhole pve like escalation mechanics. The cool down timer is obvious, but the need for the escalation mechanic is because of alts. With 4 accounts I could still do 4 of these every 4 hours (if there was a 4 hour cool down time). people would realize this and Burner farming with legions of alts would make what happens in high sec incursions seem reasonable lol.

The escalation mechanic would be a great help. For every frig you bring (whether alt of player), another super powerful npc frig spawns, BUT (for balance sake) only 1 npc frig would have even a chance of dropping nice loot.

Meaning, sure, bring your 50 man frig fleet of insta-poppage, the mission will spawn 50 powerful and identical npc frigs but only ONE of them could have a nice loot drop and you'll never know which one it is before hand. You couldn't even pop all of them to find the one wreck with loot because I'd make it where each one drops at least 1 metal scrap lol.

That's what i'd do at least, as presented, these 'Burner' missions are going to be supremely farmable by people like me. Imagine that Station in Curse that has like 5 or 6 lvl 4 agents in 1 station, a few guys with super high Angel Standings could drop the price of machariels down to 250 mil each lol. Null alliances would be flying Mach Doctrines in a week LOL.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#246 - 2014-08-15 12:55:23 UTC
^ If you need 3 accounts to support sustainable blitzing (divide income by 3) don't you think you might be better off just running Lv 4s in a 'rauder with one account?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#247 - 2014-08-15 13:05:13 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
The main idea is good but is then fcked by how you get them; grinding normal lvl 4s using non-frigates. Make it a completely separate thing so that people can CHOOSE to go the normal "bigger is better" route OR go the "quality over quantity" one. As it is right now they'll just get declined by normal missions runners and people who'd WANT to do them cba to wade through the **** that is normal lvl 4 missions.


Dude, I've run something like 1,400 Level 4s. I will certainly swap to a frigate to run those *new* missions if the pay is worth the time and they spawn in hisec.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#248 - 2014-08-15 13:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
^ If you need 3 accounts to support sustainable blitzing (divide income by 3) don't you think you might be better off just running Lv 4s in a 'rauder with one account?


The carrier i bought via an Evening of blitzing Sisters Of EVE lvl 4 missions disagrees. And it's not 'needing' 3 accounts, I just happened to have them (I have 4) so what I do is optimal for me. Most nights i blitz I'm using the 1 account , hell sometimes im not even doing lvl 4s, but lvl 3s in my Stoicfaux Modified Machariel (STOchariel).

You'd only need 1 account and a friend who occasionally run missions to repair single agent standings thus allowing for near infinite blitzing. Hell , there are services around that will do it for you for a little bit of isk.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#249 - 2014-08-15 13:12:07 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
^ If you need 3 accounts to support sustainable blitzing (divide income by 3) don't you think you might be better off just running Lv 4s in a 'rauder with one account?


The same 2 to 3 accounts can be used to blitz regular Lev 4 missions. If it's worth it or not depends on the PLEX price and the number of play-hours one has in month. That is assuming these accounts are used only and only for L4 missions - in real EVE they can do various things so I believe most people that play EVE longer term have 2 or more accounts.

The full EVE experience starts with 2 accounts.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#250 - 2014-08-15 13:14:21 UTC
Oh and next time, proof read your DEVblog Mr. Dev guy.

Quote:
These missions pit you against pirate “Burners”, pilots trained by the five major pirate factions that have set off on their own and become a seemingly omnipresent danger to shipping in the cluster’s shipping.


Yo dawg
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#251 - 2014-08-15 13:59:09 UTC
Moraguth wrote:


You said neuts won't work.
I know that webs and painters work.
What about scrams to turn off their MWD?
ECM to break lock entirely? ecm modules and/or drones?
Will nos treat the npc as having 100% cap the whole time? not give any cap at all? give a set amount?

Also, to make these more difficult/fun, would using sleeper ai make any sort of difference?

Will it always be us versus 1 frigate, or can there sometimes be pairs of them (one to ecm/neut the player, the other to dps maybe)?

Are these meant to be doable with t2 ships/gear, or is the player pretty much forced to go for more expensive ships/mods?


ECM works. Generally rats have fairly high sensor strength on any rats worth ECMing (sleepers and incursion rats with particularly nasty EWAR).
NOS as it currently works will give you full cap again.
The only differences between sleeper/incursion AI and current rat AI is how high its turned up, and mostly this difference is in how multiple ships aggro and apply EWAR to mutliple ships. In a 1v1 these AIs would function very similarly.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Roxide Jamnbam
Dreadful Craving
#252 - 2014-08-15 14:12:23 UTC
Very very interesting. But then this " The fact that these missions can only be received as part of the random level 4 security mission pool should prevent them from being too farmable." OH BUMMER Roll I am NOT a mission runner, but this mission grabbed my attention, but there's no way I'll grind brain numbing missions just for a chance at this one. I know farming missions is bad/stupid/lame and good to make it not farmable. but. There are probably other types of mechanics that prevent farming without excluding non-mission grinders... I hope...
Anyway this looks good.. (for "them") Ugh
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#253 - 2014-08-15 14:12:35 UTC
Make them send the pilots engaging them suspect.

Win.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#254 - 2014-08-15 14:41:28 UTC
Roxide Jamnbam wrote:
Very very interesting. But then this " The fact that these missions can only be received as part of the random level 4 security mission pool should prevent them from being too farmable." OH BUMMER Roll I am NOT a mission runner, but this mission grabbed my attention, but there's no way I'll grind brain numbing missions just for a chance at this one. I know farming missions is bad/stupid/lame and good to make it not farmable. but. There are probably other types of mechanics that prevent farming without excluding non-mission grinders... I hope...
Anyway this looks good.. (for "them") Ugh



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBGbeRncBDw

That guy blitzes missions in cheap ships. I haven't seen him do a mission that takes more than maybe 3 minutes. This is in low sec but it allies everywhere. people who know how to do missions don't end up with numb brain.

If CCP thinks these things won't get farmed, they don't run missions. Systems with multiple lvl 4 agents (of the same faction) clumped together about to regain the "mission hub" importance they kind of lost with the introduction of the SOE ships. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#255 - 2014-08-15 15:12:31 UTC
Another solution is to do rounds among a bunch of level 4 mission agents. That should work too. Granted, the individual LP pools will grow slower, but that only means you need more patience.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia

Optimo Sebiestor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#256 - 2014-08-15 15:33:32 UTC
If you like running around in highsec doing blitzing and other carebear activities, by all means run them to you bleed from Your ears. Personally, I wont go running around blitzing and declinging missions in lowsec, im negative ten and my main motivation for playing is blowing up People like you. As mentioned in a post before, i was looking forward to ccp actually making some pve content that was Worth doing. Putting the Burner missions into the existing lvl 4 pool, just makes them not Worth it. I'm not leaving my pvp, for a lvl 4 scheme/grind/blitz or what ever concotion you have Jenn aSide.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#257 - 2014-08-15 15:34:04 UTC
Faction standings. e.g. State standings give you access to all the mission agents in an empire. All security agents give missions from the same mission pool. in just one constellation you could find several security agents, and the idea of bugging security agents until you found a burner was a good idea. especially if you're in a frigate anyway, you could spend your 4 hour mission decline timer going around to all the security agents in an empire.
Roxide Jamnbam
Dreadful Craving
#258 - 2014-08-15 15:39:47 UTC
What if! This is PvE crossover to PvP...
Then ... there might be PvP crossover to PvE? hahahha if so then cool Pirate
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#259 - 2014-08-15 15:43:31 UTC
So despite all of the posts about "different demographics, level 4 runners won't even want to do this" I haven't seen a single post in this thread from a level 4 runner saying that.

Instead there's a great number of people that seem very concerned for our welfare, and think the poor level 4 runners would be better off never having to see these missions at all.

I run level 4 missions and I will do these too, as will any mission runner that likes money. Low-sec has had plenty of things added to it over the past few years, FW revamp, crimewatch, clone soldier tags, mordus NPCs, the mordu gurista site that drops all kinds of new modules, the new thukker assembly arrays. This is the first thing that has been added to L4 missions in ages, so can the "please delete from regular pool and add to lowsec only agents" posters kindly **** OFF AND DIE (in-game, not irl)
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2014-08-15 15:44:41 UTC
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:
If you like running around in highsec doing blitzing and other carebear activities, by all means run them to you bleed from Your ears. Personally, I wont go running around blitzing and declinging missions in lowsec, im negative ten and my main motivation for playing is blowing up People like you. As mentioned in a post before, i was looking forward to ccp actually making some pve content that was Worth doing. Putting the Burner missions into the existing lvl 4 pool, just makes them not Worth it. I'm not leaving my pvp, for a lvl 4 scheme/grind/blitz or what ever concotion you have Jenn aSide.


No aspect of the game will ever be for everyone, it's long overdue for something to be added for those who like missions/PvE. Especially those who don't like the BS type of level IV's (or ships).