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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] K162 Signatures Appearing on First Jump

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Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#241 - 2014-08-14 09:58:56 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.


incl. the dormant timer, effectively shutting my connections then right?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#242 - 2014-08-14 10:17:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.



Oh, I missed that, that's interesting.

Would it lead to too many K162s coming in from KS?

It could be quite interesting to have wormholes coming in from deep in the protected null blue, where I believe warping to wormholes is discouraged. But that could be quite a significant and disruptive change, and probably more than you would want to address outside of a sovereignty rebalance.

Either way, this feature, looks nicely done overall.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2014-08-14 10:18:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.
Which is very very very bad design serving no useful purpose whatsoever and we are begging you to fix it.

SSC Brokering Service
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#244 - 2014-08-14 10:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.


See, this is why corps can seal themselves inside a WH. Crash static then "don't warp to the new sig" policy while they farm or w/e. Why don't you guys make the new static spawn anyway, with a delay timer of course so an active scanner can spawn it into existence as of now? Technical issues?
You are kidding yourself thinking that corps will be too afraid to roll statics but will have the balls to farm with the dangerous static open Straight. They will just roll it with BS's, I think 5 guys in BS's can crit a C5 hole in like 10 minutes or so.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#245 - 2014-08-14 10:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Axloth Okiah wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.
Which is very very very bad design serving no useful purpose whatsoever and we are begging you to fix it.



If we take into account, the additional wormhole spawns, the mass-lite wormholes, that effectively cannot be closed, the additional static in c4's ( which actually realistically each one creates a connection in two holes), making holes immediately spawn, would turn the whole of WH space into a killzone for anyone trying to earn enough to live in them.

The result would be , they would become an Alt hobby or a wasteland.

This overall rebalance, other than the one everyone hates, is good in the way that it makes life less sustainable for those who wish to use wormholes purely as an income source. Without completely making it impossible to live here in a self supporting manner.
There will need to be an income rebalance to ensure occupancy remains viable in the long term.

If one just "opens" everything up we will have a short term rush of kills, which although fun, would be followed by a long, long, drought.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#246 - 2014-08-14 10:27:35 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:
You're only considering how this will impact a null PVE player and deciding the whole change is increasing safety. This change makes chain rolling for caps farming in wormholes a thing again (unless the mass based jump spawn stays as is).

I'd prefer the ability to surprise farming capitals with a prepared group to axing the change based on the notion that people have always been waiting on the other side of that null connection to swarm the guy who scanned it down.



It's not the pve only. Pretty much standard that everyone docks when I enter a null system. It's pretty lame. If you look at my kb - it's not like I'm some leet invincible pvp machine. Just a guy looking for some fights. It's the whole system and mentality.

TBH I think it's rather a stretch to imply null is much more than a massive pve theme park at this point. There really aren't any sides to take in a major conflict. You can't take sov unless it's permitted. Moon goo is all locked down. Player regulated theme park (taxes included).

There is some good stuff going on in stain and I haven't been to syndicate lately, but that's historically a place for some action. Other than that.....

I know a lot of guys love to rage roll for pvp. Just my opinion, (really, not knocking on it - a whole lot of folks like it) but I don't find it that fun. I'd rather make a big chain and work with that. I'm still not convinced this makes rage rolling better. For c5/c6 - if folks are doing sites - odds are they are webbed and scrammed or sieged. The time saved between warping to the wh and jumping in is kind of small in my mind. It seems like you're just saving the align and warp time of the fleet. In the bigger scheme of things.... meh.

I look at this as poor fix to a bad implementation of a good feature. The overlay makes sense for a lot of things, but wh ops isn't one of them. Just take it out.

The overlay issue asside - the few moments of detectability you save while rage rolling vs the ability to not open a wh that you've warped to (in null specifically)..... This sux for pvp. Overall it doesn't add anything and it doesn't really fix anything.
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#247 - 2014-08-14 10:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.
Which is very very very bad design serving no useful purpose whatsoever and we are begging you to fix it.



If we take into account, the additional wormhole spawns, the mass-lite wormholes, that effectively cannot be closed, the additional static in c4's ( which actually realistically each one creates a connection in two holes), making holes immediately spawn, would turn the whole of WH space into a killzone for anyone trying to earn enough to live in them.

The result would be , they would become an Alt hobby or a wasteland.

This overall rebalance, other than the one everyone hates, is good in the way that it makes life less sustainable for those who wish to use wormholes purely as an income source. Without completely making it impossible to live here in a self supporting manner.
There will need to be an income rebalance to ensure occupancy remains viable in the long term.

If one just "opens" everything up we will have a short term rush of kills, which although fun, would be followed by a long, long, drought.


Oddly enough they will increase WH spawn rate but keep un-scanned statics and their respective K162 closed. Of course CCP might have good reasons to approach it this way but it sure looks like an "ass first" approach (for the uneducated -> me).

Edited - Maybe because it's nice to enter an uninhabited WH and activate the static and get to grab people in the out going system which is a solid reason P.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#248 - 2014-08-14 10:55:40 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
things
Thats a massive stretch. We have absolutely no idea on numbers or how common any of those new holes will be. We dont know whether you will be getting new incoming connections every 20 minutes and 1/3 of them will be the new low-mass holes, or whether it will remain business as usual when you just close your static and remain cut off for hours. Yet you are already conjuring prophecies of unrelenting killzones without any ability to farm ever... based on what?

Also suggesting "keep unspawned K162s, we have new connections to counteract it" is the same argument as "you dont need to wear seatbelts, we added airbags". First of all, 50% of those new connections will be "outgoing", so they might not even get spawned at all if ppl dont warp to them. Even if they do, maybe ppl wont feel like jumping through, so thats another 9+ hours extra time to remain isolated. Remember you will be able to decide whether you want the new hole or not even after you check out where it leads to, thanks the ridiculously long timer.

At any rate, this design failure can be fixed extremely quickly and easily, with no detriment to anyone except people who want to remain isolated from the rest of the game. So why not just fix it now instead of living with that crap for many more years for no good reason?

SSC Brokering Service
Winthorp
#249 - 2014-08-14 11:14:08 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.
Which is very very very bad design serving no useful purpose whatsoever and we are begging you to fix it.


While i do agree Ax that it is indeed bad design and my preferred option would be that the K162 does spawn regardless of an initiated warp after a fixed time period. I just think it would then cause them to just get in the habit of critting holes so no net end benefit.

This is a hard game mechanic to balance because while i do want the chains to be much more open i have also argued for the mass/distance changes and we can't expect to give them all this added risk of rolling holes for no tradeoff with them, a bear is always going to bear and i think it needs to be fair on them and us.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#250 - 2014-08-14 11:17:55 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.
Which is very very very bad design serving no useful purpose whatsoever and we are begging you to fix it.


While i do agree Ax that it is indeed bad design and my preferred option would be that the K162 does spawn regardless of an initiated warp after a fixed time period. I just think it would then cause them to just get in the habit of critting holes so no net end benefit.

This is a hard game mechanic to balance because while i do want the chains to be much more open i have also argued for the mass/distance changes and we can't expect to give them all this added risk of rolling holes for no tradeoff with them, a bear is always going to bear and i think it needs to be fair on them and us.


From experience I can say, go balls in into verged hole. Buddy of mine lost a marauder to 3 T3s that did so. Blindly. Kinda funny. Balancing between locked hole - no spawn and crited hole is tricky.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#251 - 2014-08-14 12:08:28 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.
Which is very very very bad design serving no useful purpose whatsoever and we are begging you to fix it.


While i do agree Ax that it is indeed bad design and my preferred option would be that the K162 does spawn regardless of an initiated warp after a fixed time period. I just think it would then cause them to just get in the habit of critting holes so no net end benefit.
IMHO critted/bubbled/picketed connections are still much better than no connections at all. You can still jump a carrier full of T3s through a crit hole, or you can seed ships, insert scouts, gather intel, etc. If someone wants to prevent others from interfering it should require some effort, resources and manpower, and not just the "ability" to not warp to the hole or in the new iteration to not jump through the hole.

So please let people crit the holes, as it requires at last some activity and carries some risk. But both sides should be interactable.

SSC Brokering Service
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#252 - 2014-08-14 12:51:34 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Stuff

The problem of nullsec is a pretty big one since it might as well be the marketing arm of CCP and yes, it's pretty stagnant. That's a huge can of worms separate from these changes though.

The problem of most people docking and not fighting is largely the same as people sealing themselves up in their WH and not wanting to fight there either. Some people just want to bear, some just like low responsibility F1 fights and fending off wormholers whether solo or in a small gang might not be fun to them.

Winthorp just put it pretty well. It needs to be fair, and more importantly, fun to both sides.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#253 - 2014-08-14 13:12:41 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Stuff

The problem of nullsec is a pretty big one since it might as well be the marketing arm of CCP and yes, it's pretty stagnant. That's a huge can of worms separate from these changes though.

The problem of most people docking and not fighting is largely the same as people sealing themselves up in their WH and not wanting to fight there either. Some people just want to bear, some just like low responsibility F1 fights and fending off wormholers whether solo or in a small gang might not be fun to them.

Winthorp just put it pretty well. It needs to be fair, and more importantly, fun to both sides.



I'll never give in. To me the biggest isk sink in eve should always always always be the destruction of ships. Allowing folks to not open a wh does not have that game design goal in mind (well it's my game design goal). Yeah the null mess is big. I'm not trying to fix it (though I have some daring ideas - Fozzie feel free to mail me in game), I'm just trying to keep from making it worse.

Cyano jammers, overlay, system upgrades.... and so on.... do null guys really need a no spawn wh too?

I don't see a lot of fair in this or the mass/range thing. Both primarily aid bigger groups, so if you want to debate changes as to what is fair, there is a lot of personal perspective shading that one way or the other. Changes are in general fair as presented, the trick is to keep in mind who is presenting ideas and what their real goals are.
Edlorna Tinebe
The Elerium Trust
#254 - 2014-08-16 03:28:24 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:
The problem of nullsec is a pretty big one since it might as well be the marketing arm of CCP and yes, it's pretty stagnant. That's a huge can of worms separate from these changes though.

The problem of most people docking and not fighting is largely the same as people sealing themselves up in their WH and not wanting to fight there either. Some people just want to bear, some just like low responsibility F1 fights and fending off wormholers whether solo or in a small gang might not be fun to them.

Winthorp just put it pretty well. It needs to be fair, and more importantly, fun to both sides.


I have to say, it's extremely refreshing to see someone say that bears have a right to play EVE too. Thank you both for that.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#255 - 2014-08-16 06:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Axloth Okiah wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
things
Thats a massive stretch. We have absolutely no idea on numbers or how common any of those new holes will be. We dont know whether you will be getting new incoming connections every 20 minutes and 1/3 of them will be the new low-mass holes, or whether it will remain business as usual when you just close your static and remain cut off for hours. Yet you are already conjuring prophecies of unrelenting killzones without any ability to farm ever... based on what?

Also suggesting "keep unspawned K162s, we have new connections to counteract it" is the same argument as "you dont need to wear seatbelts, we added airbags". First of all, 50% of those new connections will be "outgoing", so they might not even get spawned at all if ppl dont warp to them. Even if they do, maybe ppl wont feel like jumping through, so thats another 9+ hours extra time to remain isolated. Remember you will be able to decide whether you want the new hole or not even after you check out where it leads to, thanks the ridiculously long timer.

At any rate, this design failure can be fixed extremely quickly and easily, with no detriment to anyone except people who want to remain isolated from the rest of the game. So why not just fix it now instead of living with that crap for many more years for no good reason?


This is one of those situations, where our lifestyle can make it hard to see the effect on others.
When a corp gets to a certain size and can always be assured of a certain number of members on, then the issue of needing to have isolation disappears.

Smaller corps in lower class holes, desperately need the time to feed. Without it they literally cannot survive. If they wither and die, then they provide less and less content until wormhole space becomes a desert..

Taking an example from nature, all herbivores need longer to feed than carnivores, as their food source is less nutritious.
If carnivores continuously chase, and disturb, for example a herd of horses, then the horses literally starve to death as their energy expenditure cannot be matched by their energy intake.

If the horses die, there is no herd to supply prey to feed the pack.
Just a short boom for the scavengers feeding on the last dying individuals and rotting carcasses.
Whilst the hunters begin to starve in turn.

So carnivores, for most of the day, let the prey rest, and feed, and only then strike, hard and fast, and BOTH herd and pack thrive.

Some omnivores and herbivores, evolved, into hunters themselves, Humanity is a prime example.
That would never have happened if humanity was not able to create security through a degree of isolation, caves sound familiar?
Often nothing more than a crack in a cliff with a boulder rolled across to close it.

If we had been forced to live on the Open Velt during that stage of our development then we would be extinct by now.

Do not deny your prey the time they need, they need to eat.

Without them, we have nothing.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#256 - 2014-08-16 15:34:32 UTC
Nice comparison.

Also, it's looks to me like the horrible for wh overlay is being 'fixed' in wh space only by pandering to the blue donut overlords and making null renter rainbow fram land even more saferer. Talk about doubling down. (how often does doubleing down pay off???)

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjtourn-doublechart.php
Raamah
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#257 - 2014-08-16 22:43:26 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.


it is quickly becoming apparent that having a "closed" wormhole may become a thing of the past, which is regrettable. I wonder if that is intentional? Also, the random k162 opening essentially brings us back to the same meta we're at now, which is to not warp to wormholes unless you wanna open the system.
Sto Lo
The Corporation of Noble Sentiments
#258 - 2014-08-16 23:14:26 UTC
Thanks for the round table fozzie, can we get somthing similar that allows the small corps a say.
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#259 - 2014-08-17 01:57:11 UTC
small corps got a say and infact they got several chances just for them only to say something. fozzie ignored the whole lot of us so good luck with that
Ren Kavik
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2014-08-18 04:39:13 UTC
Im a very posistive person really and i hate being negative.
But im afraid i must say something.
I see alot of opinions of NONE-wormholers here.
Looks to me that there turning wh's in general into a pipeline to null.

Me and my fellow wormholers are not happy with the developments.
I havent seen 1 thing that actually benefits the current wh players.
Im afraid of a mass exodus from wh space.

I run a small wh corps in a lower clas wh.
Ive heard from fellow corpleaders that their pulling the plug on each of there respective whs.

I mean im not talking about the big corps
They will have no problem keeping control over their whs.
I mean the only thing for them to fear is rooks and kings basicly.
(no offense to all those other badass wh corps)

But for the smaller corps its a whole different matter.
It doesnt make sense to me to kill off 1 of the best training grounds for small new corps.
I mean are small new corps going to be condemned to wander highsec with no real chance of learning how to control a peace of space.

The C1-C3 WH was a great place to give a small corps some space to control before growing into bigger corps.
These small corps could opperate because of the relative safety closing down the openings provided.
Removing this ability will make it impossible for the small corps to get by in the wh.

Im afraid that c1-c3 will become a desolate place. "invisions a dustbowl flieing by"
The rewards in those systems dont match up with the increased risk.
The site difficulty isnt the problem.
The almost certainty of getting 'ganked' by some fail pvper looking for something to kill that wont shoot back.
Dont get me wrong i love pvp.
Its just that these pvpers dont ever dare attacking something that has anychance of killing them.
O dear what if lose my 99% killrate.
Pathetic really.

But back on topic.
My point is that there must be an increased reward to ballance out the increased risk that comes with the hyperion update.
If this does not happen look at player activity graphs in the whs in about 6 months and even less players wil be in wh.
Well to be more precise there might be the same amount of unique users but significantly less hours logged in the lower class whs.

Is the future of the lower class whs really only going to be a backdoor to null?

Trust me the young corps that your killing now wont resub in 6 months when you try to fix this mess.

Treully a shame.