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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#921 - 2014-08-14 07:20:07 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt.
Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling.

Yeah because farmers don't crit every connection they have... Roll
Come away from your drool-proof keyboard.

sure, they do. but they really dont need to.
id say at least 90% of site ganks are due to poeple rolling in directly.

if they really want to they can still crit with cheap BSs, or they can move to hole with c1/2 statics that are very easily critted with BSs/small ships.
in any case, if you think these changes will see a decrease in farming or that they will still use caps to crit their holes then you are delusional.


short term, perhaps, long term will mean less people.

Point is, when you spawn away from WH, there is bigger chance you get shot, killed, poded and whatnot. For some gruops, that can be game-ending since if you for example kill out everybody in the hole and they have no backup to scan? Might be silly, or might just be they dont have enough blob for everything.

Not everybody is god-almighty in wormholes and although you might say, then they should not come, question is why? WHy deny them? Isnt the goal to make the space more populated? Most opinions here promote the elitism in WHs.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#922 - 2014-08-14 07:44:07 UTC
Can you all pass me the magic crystal ball since you all know what's gonna happen in the future?

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#923 - 2014-08-14 09:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
the changes has a negative effect on smaller corps. itll be harder to make a living as it'll take longer to crit/roll holes, there will be more of them and it will be more dangerous (even using bs instead of caps/orcas). there will be holes that they cant close that means a decent sized frig fleet can come in and establish hole control while keeping pve assets pinned in sites. larger corps will have the numbers to work around or simply ignore most of these issues but it will still effect them. these are facts not opinions.

as someone else said, there is no increase in reward and given these facts, what exactly do you think is going to happen? you dont exactly need a crystal ball to form your own opinion. I mean you can still form the wrong opinion I guess but everyone will see you for the fool you are, regardless if you're a bigshot in the wh community.

and I don't care if you're an npc corp alt, in HK, null or a ccp dev, if you are being a ****** I will call you out on it.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
crazy0146
The Federation of assorted candy
#924 - 2014-08-14 09:47:45 UTC
I now know why ccp is thinking of making this change!

Go read the planned changes to the nestor in F&I.

They want to discourage cap use and encourage corps to start using the nestor, as it will be a smaller worse carrier, but won't spawn far from the hole.

This is all to get people to actually use the nestor.
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#925 - 2014-08-14 09:56:16 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt.
Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling.


Yeah because farmers don't crit every connection they have... Roll

Come away from your drool-proof keyboard.


He said exactly what you said [/facepalm]. Yes farmers crit/close their static currently and the only way to get them is by rage-rolling into them. Since they will be able to do that after expansion too (if they won't be able to close/crit the static they won't farm), less rage-rolling = less farmer ganks, get it? Roll
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#926 - 2014-08-14 10:15:34 UTC
crazy0146 wrote:
I now know why ccp is thinking of making this change!

Go read the planned changes to the nestor in F&I.

They want to discourage cap use and encourage corps to start using the nestor, as it will be a smaller worse carrier, but won't spawn far from the hole.

This is all to get people to actually use the nestor.


This and to rely on Mobile Depot's for once

Both these have major flaws. The Depot dies before it onlines and the nestor either has to be stored inside the carrier to make sure it comes out at the same point or has to slow boat to the carrier (big note on having the nestor stored, the moment you pop the nestor out people will lock it up preventing it from being boarded)

So Much Space
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#927 - 2014-08-14 10:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lenroc Elisav wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt.
Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling.


Yeah because farmers don't crit every connection they have... Roll

Come away from your drool-proof keyboard.


He said exactly what you said [/facepalm]. Yes farmers crit/close their static currently and the only way to get them is by rage-rolling into them. Since they will be able to do that after expansion too (if they won't be able to close/crit the static they won't farm), less rage-rolling = less farmer ganks, get it? Roll



Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?

If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process will not stop them.

Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.

So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#928 - 2014-08-14 11:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
Rek Seven wrote:


Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?

If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.

Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.

So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?


Erm no Big smile. You can't say that rage rolling will take longer, even by 2 minutes which i think is about a 50% increase in time, and then pretend it will have the same effectiveness. And farmers will roll with BS's . But I do agree with you that PvE for small corps receives a nerf too because sometime a small corp will have to log off cause of a very bad connection which will be too risky to close, not that now is risk free as some people pretend.

TLDR - can we agree that neither PvE nor PvP are improved by this change? Yes some occasional gank of some poor SOB will happen but .... meh.

P.S. By less i meant less effective not that it won't take place, speaking of rage-rolling.
Winthorp
#929 - 2014-08-14 11:19:55 UTC
Lenroc Elisav wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:


Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?

If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.

Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.

So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?


Erm no Big smile. You can't say that rage rolling will take longer, even by 2 minutes which i think is about a 50% increase in time, and then pretend it will have the same effectiveness. And farmers will roll with BS's . But I do agree with you that PvE for small corps receives a nerf too because sometime a small corp will have to log off cause of a very bad connection which will be too risky to close, not that now is risk free as some people pretend.

TLDR - can we agree that neither PvE nor PvP are improved by this change? Yes some occasional gank of some poor SOB will happen but .... meh.

P.S. By less i meant less effective not that it won't take place, speaking of rage-rolling.


In my opinion it is of no great loss if a smaller PVE group logs off when they see hostiles, there is no difference from that lack of interaction to the lack of interaction with others if they close their Wh safely and then just farm. Both situations result in no interactions with anyone.

The only interactions that they have with other people if they roll their chain is they are cheap ganks for groups that roll in.

So if they log off they log off, no great loss honestly. We talk all the time of the lack of ISK in low class Wh's and yet we are ok with small groups rolling away any danger and jewing away quietly thus lowering MNR prices that is the main ISK source for low class WH's.

Again i say let them log off, no great loss and only benifit to other people in lower class Wh's.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#930 - 2014-08-14 11:44:35 UTC
Lenroc Elisav wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:


Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?

If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.

Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.

So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?


Erm no Big smile. You can't say that rage rolling will take longer, even by 2 minutes which i think is about a 50% increase in time, and then pretend it will have the same effectiveness. And farmers will roll with BS's . But I do agree with you that PvE for small corps receives a nerf too because sometime a small corp will have to log off cause of a very bad connection which will be too risky to close, not that now is risk free as some people pretend.

TLDR - can we agree that neither PvE nor PvP are improved by this change? Yes some occasional gank of some poor SOB will happen but .... meh.

P.S. By less i meant less effective not that it won't take place, speaking of rage-rolling.


Well apparently some idea is (not mine) that if this will make the WH space more occupied. I wonder how?:D
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#931 - 2014-08-14 11:53:05 UTC
Chev Alsar wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:

It's no secret that there is barely any pvp within WH space these days


Where exactly is your proof that there is less PVP than previously?

Where is your proof that this proposed change will increase the amount of PVP*?

Where is your proof that most PVP happens due to statics being left open?

*Keep in mind you cannot PVP people in Wormholes that no longer play in Wormhole space.


Do me a favor and look up the top killers in WH space on eve kill and tell me where they get the bulk of their kills.

I'd be very surprised if you said WH space.

In regards to proof. No where have i said that this would increase the amount of PvP nor that most PvP happens because of statics left open. I have simply said that currently it is too easy to close threatening holes that allow caps through them

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#932 - 2014-08-14 12:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sith1s Spectre
Anize Oramara wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.

all WH corps should unsub in mass.

lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.

they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into..

WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each?

as a nullsec character I can make 800mill a night if I tried. difference with whs is I can do that every night, wormholers can only keep it up for 4 nights and its dependant on site respawns and number of people in the hole.

nullsec is why plex is 800mill.


Oh! That must be the reason you see all the 5-10 man farming corps with nullsec ties in 5/6 space

I dunno, I moved out of c5 wh space because its easier and safer to make isk in null and I get to shoot more goons and cvgays. my kb has never been this green and my wallet this full.

hmmm aaah now I see, you were in sky fighters/talocan back in the day before I moved into c5 space. then you hopped from one wh corp to another... so why did you join razor? and it was recent too! what is your motivation for giving a **** about wh space as a nullseccer now? if you are in favor of this change why did you leave wh space. whats you angle here?

ps it seems you did pretty well for youself looking at you kb. tell me why you think there wasnt enough pvp in wormhole space and why this change is needed to inflate your kb more.

bahaha so wait on the 5th of august you guys killed a farming fleet, and want to tell me with a straight face that wh the bears are 100% safe? pahahahaha what a troll.

gets evwn better. another farmer fleet kill in july, june, the ones in may look like pvp stuff, theres another one in feb...


Sure, guess I have to spell everything out for you.

1 - I have been within WH space for the last 3 years. 2 years of that was running Sky Fighters (and then Rolled Out after that which was the majority of Sky Fighters which you would know if you were actually involved within the community) During that time I have flown with (or against) the majority of the other major WH groups from c6 space to c2 space

2 - Things closed down and I hopped around because things have become boring as there are/were litterally only 3-4 other groups who could/would actually fight us/the corps I was in. The rest would just roll away (which other diplos in WH Overlords and then Rainbow Nights could verify from me bitching about it)

3 - Which brings me to where I am now. Most of the larger WH PvP groups now roam null for their main staple of PvP on a day to day basis.

With the new changes and added Null to Null and Null to Lowsec holes spawning in increased number it makes sense for me/Rolled Out to be now based in Null and just cut the whole POS life/scanning the whole damn chain and just go to step 3 of what was a daily activity for us (which was roaming nullsec for pews)

I am/Rolled Out is and always will be still very involved within (and roaming) WH space. We just wont/don't see the need to base our operations from a WH now.

4 - I am still of the opinion that currently if people farming are on the ball they are very much safe. As with the instant sig on the overview now (not like how it use to be where you had to have probes out all the time and refreshing to pick up new signatures) they generally have ample time to finish their siege/triage cycle and get out of the site (unless they're pointed) in addition to easily closing any threatening connections with minimum risk (with proper scouting)


In closing I don't care if people disagree with me, it's my opinion and i'm entitled to it. However I've been round WH space long enough and flown with most groups often enough to be entitled to my opinion even if you don't agree with it.

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#933 - 2014-08-14 12:36:40 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Lenroc Elisav wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:


Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?

If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.

Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.

So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?


Erm no Big smile. You can't say that rage rolling will take longer, even by 2 minutes which i think is about a 50% increase in time, and then pretend it will have the same effectiveness. And farmers will roll with BS's . But I do agree with you that PvE for small corps receives a nerf too because sometime a small corp will have to log off cause of a very bad connection which will be too risky to close, not that now is risk free as some people pretend.

TLDR - can we agree that neither PvE nor PvP are improved by this change? Yes some occasional gank of some poor SOB will happen but .... meh.

P.S. By less i meant less effective not that it won't take place, speaking of rage-rolling.


In my opinion it is of no great loss if a smaller PVE group logs off when they see hostiles, there is no difference from that lack of interaction to the lack of interaction with others if they close their Wh safely and then just farm. Both situations result in no interactions with anyone.

The only interactions that they have with other people if they roll their chain is they are cheap ganks for groups that roll in.

So if they log off they log off, no great loss honestly. We talk all the time of the lack of ISK in low class Wh's and yet we are ok with small groups rolling away any danger and jewing away quietly thus lowering MNR prices that is the main ISK source for low class WH's.

Again i say let them log off, no great loss and only benifit to other people in lower class Wh's.

weeeellll if they log of it means they aren't doing pve meaning when someone ragwrolls into them, less content.

so technically incorrect on the no interaction part.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#934 - 2014-08-14 13:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Apelacja
actually its preety easy to catch ppl when u are rolling wh ( of course as long as u can use d-scan lol).

However problematic right now is emptiness - u roll 20 h and most probably will not find any wh with activity inside diffrent then few afk ventures


Most of the WH are farmed like 2 h per day few days per week. Many are empty.

If u want to create more pvp content populated wh`s and add some content worth to do but time consuming.


Just imagine what would happen if there will be half of current population in wh




EDit:

Just have a look at FW space - somehow success - well FW guys earn good iskies, many even will say to good, but density of population in those few regions of ls make it healthly. And more ppl more ocasions to pvp = more loose better economy.


I dont `know maybe make some prestige class of WH with like 50 systems so there will be a fight for them?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#935 - 2014-08-14 13:48:56 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?

do you actually believe the crap you put out on these forums or are you just trolling at this point?

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#936 - 2014-08-14 13:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Jack Miton wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?

do you actually believe the crap you put out on these forums or are you just trolling at this point?


I wouldn't say it if it didn't believe it.

You alway disagree without making a point or having a strong argument. Instead of your dump one line responses, how about you engage your brain and post something that has a basis in reality? If you can't do that stfu and stop reading my posts.

Prove me wrong Jack, i double dare you.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#937 - 2014-08-14 14:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sith1s Spectre
Rek Seven wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?

do you actually believe the crap you put out on these forums or are you just trolling at this point?


I wouldn't say it if it didn't believe it.

You alway disagree without making a point or having a strong argument. Instead of your dump one line responses, how about you engage your brain and post something that has a basis in reality? If you can't do that stfu and stop reading my posts.

Prove me wrong Jack, i double dare you.


To be fair Jack and I have had many heated discussions (in a channel we both hang out in to keep in touch) and he has presented several strong points (of which we can never agree on anything really).

I guess from his point of view (and he'll correct me if i'm wrong) he's worried these changes will empty out WH space even more than the current wasteland in the higher end holes. You only need to look at how empty c6 space is and has never really recovered after the mass evictions from 2 years ago

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#938 - 2014-08-14 14:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Winthorp wrote:
Lenroc Elisav wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:


stuff



stuff



In my opinion it is of no great loss if a smaller PVE group logs off when they see hostiles, there is no difference from that lack of interaction to the lack of interaction with others if they close their Wh safely and then just farm. Both situations result in no interactions with anyone.

The only interactions that they have with other people if they roll their chain is they are cheap ganks for groups that roll in.

So if they log off they log off, no great loss honestly. We talk all the time of the lack of ISK in low class Wh's and yet we are ok with small groups rolling away any danger and jewing away quietly thus lowering MNR prices that is the main ISK source for low class WH's.

Again i say let them log off, no great loss and only benifit to other people in lower class Wh's.



You speak to closing wh safely in the first paragraph. Is there some mechanic preventing you from jumping in with them when they roll? I keep hearing this 'roll safely' over and over. Wh don't get rolled safely - period. To roll a wh you have to warp to it, jump through it, jump back and warp away. If you're watching someone roll a wh YOU CAN ALWAYS JUMP INTO THEIR SYSTEM (ALWAYS) and get a fight.

From the time they get into warp to the wh they are closing they are committed. IF you jump into their system they come out of warp and fight you or roll the wh and fight you. Fighting isn't an option - they are committed. What makes the 'bear farmer rollers' safe is the reluctance of the PVP gank fleets to jump in and force the fight.

SAFE is defined by the gank side, not the roller side. So please, all of you - stop saying folks can roll holes safely. The facts are that they are allowed to roll without being engaged due to a free will choice to not jump in by those wanting to gank them. It's risk aversion and/or loss avoidance on the gank end allowing the wh to get rolled.

I'm not calling anyone PU5575 for doing this. We all do it. I am saying that rolling a wh is done w/ out a fight because the gankers (for whatever reason) choose to allow it. The safely argument is just an extension of the occaisional forum slap fights we get: You didn't jump into us! No you didn't jump into us! You brought too many caps. You brought a carrier and that's not cool. Put 'you rolled the hole safely' in that pile.

TL/DR - If a wh gets rolled in front of you SAFELY it's because you allowed it to be rolled safely. If there is any blame to be put, it's not on the guy rolling the wh (HINT: he's the one that brought ships and jumped through)
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#939 - 2014-08-14 14:19:01 UTC
Sigh CCP better update us on this soon before the WH'ers here continue eating each other and it starts to derail

(Tinfoil on) That's probably why they haven't replied yet. they know that after a period of time we will turn on each other and then forget the change so they can put it in like they already are planning to (tinfoil off)

So Much Space
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#940 - 2014-08-14 14:20:25 UTC
I do have to ask, why again, there wasn't some kind of debate here since I see 4-5 threads in F&I that ask for feedback and direction (especially from industrialists).

For example - asking about changes that people would like to see implemented...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360465

I mean it is nice to feel like a second class citizen and that your opinion doesn't matter but hey. Just thinking out loud here.