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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#821 - 2014-08-11 17:29:31 UTC
For the record, I do like everything Traiori wrote.

And I think he's right the effect should be sort of reversed, i.e. the faster ships get flung out further, not the heavier ones. Something that would make kiting and sniping ships more viable without nerfing the Proteus directly. Tone down the top speed of covops frigs and astero a bit so they still can get bubbled and decloaked and we're golden.

And I would add that if you can't roll holes anymore ppl will just log off in their POSes instead, and just wait out the natural lifetime which is arguably worse.





Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum
Random Violence.
#822 - 2014-08-11 17:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Marshal
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
I cannot tell you how many mexican stand off's we have had with larger corps on the other side of a crit'ed hole waiting for one or the other to get stuck. That will simply not be possible with this change. The effect is that all but the largest corps will simply move out of wh's. Those stand offs simply won't happen anymore.
.


Stand off's out numbered, and having to use tactics, individual pilots skills, not only trained skills, but the player himself has do something besides F1. Amazing isn't it, where else in eve can a hand full of pilots square off with horrifically out numbered opponents and put up a fight to defend their home, or at-least close a wormhole so they can PLAY THE GAME.

You said in the Pod Cast you want reasons Viable Reasons, Here is another one. Pilots that like to use carriers and dreads
for something besides Ratting or 400 man slow cat fleets.

As for that tard complaining about closing wormholes too fast, get some skills Bro' because wormhole closures
are one the most dangerous things for a small group to do, because if you have nuts (even if they haven't dropped yet) you take your little 5 or 6 man fleet in and follow em through and get your **** on. Its not an easy GANK like what you're looking for,
yea it turns in to an actual fight when your in someone else's house.

My killboard sure aint Grand' but here is an example
Following Someone though
It was 2 orcas and a carrier collapsing a hole, we jumped in and snatched one of them
Go hard or go home right?,They collapsed the hole and we lost a guardian durring "Session change" they had additional personnel on line (More then us) in their home hole were we were trapped but being to slow to respond in time
we blapped what we could and skated out another hole static, with a trail of pissed off hornets behind us.
Mutli box'n a scanner alt while try n to cut fence sure is a chore, but its a whole lot of fun
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#823 - 2014-08-11 17:32:42 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

You discuss and present things well,

I am pretty sure just about everyone in all classes of WH, understands just how bad the core concept is. Including those who do not and are celebrating the idea, but they don't live here, and just see a few easy kills for a short while, and as they have no interest in the long term survival of wormhole life, just want to see us burn.

Whilst I applaud your ideas to make things, a little less horrible, we must be careful not to let CCP believe that every bad thing can just be gold plated.
Every other change in this release has the core of a good idea, and can be balanced, maybe not as we want initially, but can be good for the long term vibrancy of life.

This however just will never stop stinking until it is taken away and disposed of.
Hopefully, CCP now understand the magnitude of this issue and will find a polite way of doing so.
And we should have the decency to be thankful, and never speak of it again.


Here here! (raises glass in toast of a good speech)
FleetAdmiralHarper
NexaVast VoidWorks
#824 - 2014-08-11 17:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: FleetAdmiralHarper
its funny. they updated the changes and reduced the spawn range slightly.... its still a **** change that needs to be scrapped. things are fine as is. in regard to jumping wormholes.

using an orca for cargo is not a sin, and is already risky as hell, neither is rolling empty holes to find new ones with stuff to attack.
thats just risky and tedious part of wh life, YOU'RE NOT IMPROVING ANYTHING YOU'RE MAKING IT 1000X WORSE!

but it gets better, now you wanna remove escalations? XD haha.. i honestly think fozzie has played EvE once.
got bullied.
and now wants to kill the game from the inside out to punish ccp and all those players who picked on him. *slow clap for the most clever and sneaky SOB of the year* good job cancer (err i mean fozzie) youre getting your wish.


as for the rest of you.
all you K-space plebs and nullblets dont know the 1st thing about pvp or working/living in a wh or the dangers/god awful tedious grinding involved. just because you jumped into one and got lost or died once, doesn't make you an expert. your ignorance shows with every fan-boy zealot post you make or even worse idea.

to the wh'ers:
ive said it before, ill say it again. they will push this crap out anyway, and then wreck more things soon after. he already wants to apply the obama i mean (fozzie care) to escalations too. UNSUB and pull out of your whs now, while you're ahead.

they actually think if 50% of the community hates something they are doing, that they are doing a good job, i cant figure out what kinda ****** logic that is, but 90-95% of the wh community hates this change.

my corp unsubdued. all 15 of my friends who were gonna join the new corp we made to go into a wh again, unsubed, all 10 aussies who were part of the night crew unsubdued and wont come back.
i have personally have 2 weeks left on my membership. i CANT WAIT for it to end. and finally be free of this crappy 2nd job that needs to be paid for.

we will not be coming back, and this is my last post on the eve community forums. im gonna go play a fun 2.5d facebook game with 5x the active player base that eve ever had. (kinda sad aint it) ccp has got to be the worse and most ******** company to ever have blundered its way into making a game. but WE are even bigger idiots for paying them as long as we did.

i finally won at eve online. it feels good =)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcoVxbutl8g&feature=player_detailpage#t=8

*deletes 35b in assets, and biomass's characters*
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
#825 - 2014-08-11 17:49:42 UTC
So, CCP found it's balls for change again? My congratulations.

Looking forward to see your balls. bring it!
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#826 - 2014-08-11 17:54:47 UTC
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:


*deletes 35b in assets, and biomass's characters*


Can i haz ur stuff?

(dang it too late)

So Much Space

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#827 - 2014-08-11 18:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Guys, I am only a character, less than two years old and with much to learn.
In that time I have seen good changes, and some not so good.
Not every change is what we want, and we get slightly surprised when some minor changes, turn out to have better effects than we think.

This particular change is so derided and hated, for all the reasons that all of us see to a greater or lesser extent, but .

It Has not come out yet, and May never see the light of day.

Hold off on your leaving, on your unsubbing and with your reactions.
You may or may not find your original fears realised.

And whatever the faults, the old things that still annoy us, those who would see us fold and collapse, is is still a unique game, and if it goes, or if we leave, we will never see the like of it again.

Keep your powder dry, keep your fears and anger on a short leash.

There is time to do whatever you planned later, just do not give up on this game too soon, that WILL be a tragedy, as not only will you lose all of us, we will lose you, and you all bring life and vibrancy to the game..

You have influenced all you have met, your friends, those you fought, and even those you will have never seen, and nowhere else will this happen. Even if you leave, You will be remembered in some way and You will be missed even though you are no longer with us.

That is EvE, the best of EvE, let us never forget.

Good luck to us all.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#828 - 2014-08-11 18:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aureus Ahishatsu
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Hold off on your leaving, on your unsubbing and with your reactions.
You may or may not find your original fears realised.

And whatever the faults, the old things that still annoy us, those who would see us fold and collapse, is is still a unique game, and if it goes, or if we leave, we will never see the like of it again.



I didn't say I would be leaving the game. And i haven't seen too many of the drunken "i'm quitting everything!!" rants. I have no desire to just rage quit on eve. However what people are saying is that this change in particular will significantly alter the current WH community. it is not a change that will affect all equally. To the large corps it will mean simply changing wh closing doctrine to 20 BS's. To the vast majority of wh corporations though it will effectively end their way of life as they have been playing for years. I will be sticking it out till the end along with all my corp mates all the way up until the update and then make a decision on what updates they actually release. when you have multiple characters though solely devoted to WH purposes why would you continue to subscribe them if you can no longer use them?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#829 - 2014-08-11 18:55:57 UTC
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Hold off on your leaving, on your unsubbing and with your reactions.
You may or may not find your original fears realised.

And whatever the faults, the old things that still annoy us, those who would see us fold and collapse, is is still a unique game, and if it goes, or if we leave, we will never see the like of it again.



I didn't say I would be leaving the game. And i haven't seen too many of the drunken "i'm quitting everything!!" rants. I have no desire to just rage quit on eve. However what people are saying is that this change in particular will significantly alter the current WH community. it is not a change that will affect all equally. To the large corps it will mean simply changing wh closing doctrine to 20 BS's. To the vast majority of wh corporations though it will effectively end their way of life as they have been playing for years. I will be sticking it out till the end along with all my corp mates all the way up until the change. when you have multiple characters though solely devoted to WH purposes why would you continue to subscribe them if you can no longer use them?

There will be very few wherever they live C1 or C5 in large or small corps who will disagree with you.
But every one who leaves, will be sorely missed.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Richard McTrader
Doomheim
#830 - 2014-08-11 20:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard McTrader
The proposed WH Hyperion changes look very interesting. I am looking forward to what could be the greatest release of my playing time with this set of changes save one: the mass spawning distance.

Please just drop this change.

The WH mass mechanic is not broken, so please stop trying to fix it.

In addition to the many arguments shared above as to why this change is not good and a detriment to pvp, I would like to reinforce the understanding as to how boring this will be. Rather than add excitement of increased risk, the change will eliminate the excitement of jumping a capital ship through a wormhole because it is simply not worth that amount of risk.

The change adds tedium to an already time consuming and labor intensive process of rolling the wormhole. Remember, rolling the wormhole not only how we generate content for pvp even pve, but it is also how wormhole residents travel. K-space players always have methods of travel readily available in their home systems in the form of gates, cynos, jump clones and jump bridges. W-space residents have none of these options available in their residences. Rolling the hole is how we often find the connections to K-space in order to travel to market to buy and sell.

Is it a good game change to add time or require more players to simply travel around the universe or does it add boredom and frustration to an otherwise challenging game?

Please do not make this more time consuming by limiting our ability to search for ways to travel.

This change is boring for large wh corps: added tedium.
This change is boring for medium-small wh corps: log off because we cannot field the numbers to roll the hole.
This change is boring for null sec: you will likely never see a WH capital in K-space again, ever. We won't "run away" we will just never be there. You will never bring a capital into a wormhole (not that you ever do). The hole will still get rolled, but you will only ever see some battleships that you won't have time or interest to form up to fight.

I would not want Hyperion to become known as the release that made the exciting world of wormholes into the boring world of empty tedious space.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#831 - 2014-08-11 20:52:03 UTC
Richard McTrader wrote:

This change is boring for null sec: you will likely never see a WH capital in K-space again, ever. We won't "run away" we will just never be there. You will never bring a capital into a wormhole (not that you ever do). The hole will still get rolled, but you will only ever see some battleships that you won't have time or interest to form up to fight.

I would not want Hyperion to become known as the release that made the exciting world of wormholes into the boring world of empty tedious space.


Some of the most fun fights I've had is where null entities have dropped 70+ BC fleets on us and we've dropped a 10-15 man t3 fleet with triage support out, with mixed results - certainly hasn't always gone our way - sometimes just the loss of 1 t3 tips the ISK balance their way, largely this change would kill that gameplay off except in highly situational circumstances.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#832 - 2014-08-11 21:03:02 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
I didn't read everything here (40+ pages lol) but I must say I did like the idea of jump in range being reverse affected by mass. Heavier ships are closer to the hole, with the light frigates being tossed out a little further.


The main problem with that is that right now, pretty much your only hope of catching a CovOps or a cloaky, nullified T3 is if they spawn within 2k of a wormhole and they can't immediately cloak. Your suggestion not only makes them nigh uncatchable, but makes it likely that they'll spawn outside of a T1 bubble inflated at zero on the hole.

Don't get me wrong: my scouting alt would love this behavior. I'm not sure that it's good for the game, though.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

ForceAttuned Krogoth
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#833 - 2014-08-11 21:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ForceAttuned Krogoth
First i like to say i am NOT for this change, but......

This might get more kills right away, It will force smaller corps to move out of W-space as they will lose orca's and other closing ships (looking forward to killing themTwisted).

Also larger corps rolling to kill escalation fleets will get hurt, as it will take much more effort and time to roll each hole (nice as i will feel a bit safer not getting rolled into as muchLol).

Even though it sounds nice, I feel in the end this will lower the content in W-space in the long term.

Nice idea but over all it seems it will be more of a pain in the a** than getting more content.

I agree what Traiori from Cause For Concern said on the #5 post....
Tytos Khamez
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#834 - 2014-08-11 21:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tytos Khamez
I'm going to restate what has already been stated in this forum in order to underscore the valid point...

CCP's stated intention in making this change is as follows:
Quote:
This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.


The two most frequent reasons to roll a hole are 1) rage rolling the static to find content, and 2) collapsing a hole that looks dangerous. CCP wants to fix scenario 2, but this change breaks both scenarios equally. EDIT: I'd also like to add that we're always aware that there is risk involved in collapsing a hole... there's risk of miscalculating and being rolled out and risk of being attacked while rolling. It's not a 'safe' activity.

Here are a couple of suggestions that I'm just going to brainstorm without thinking through:


  • Make the entrance and exit mechanics different. Make it harder to kill a WH from the exit side.
  • Make static wh's behave differently than randomly spawned ones. Allow static ragerolling that way.


On a less relevant note to this discussion, why do ships even cloak after coming out of a WH? How does a ship that doesn't have a cloaking device cloak? Is it a function of the WH? If so, that's just dumb. Seems to me that if you've just been flung through a cosmic rip in space/time, you're probably not going to be exiting it in a stationary state, and you sure as hell won't be cloaked.

Anyway, that's my 2 isk.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#835 - 2014-08-11 21:41:44 UTC
Tytos Khamez wrote:

On a less relevant note to this discussion, why do ships even cloak after coming out of a WH? How does a ship that doesn't have a cloaking device cloak? Is it a function of the WH? If so, that's just dumb. Seems to me that if you've just been flung through a cosmic rip in space/time, you're probably not going to be exiting it in a stationary state, and you sure as hell won't be cloaked.

Anyway, that's my 2 isk.


Its more a technical consideration than a gameplay mechanic, though less relevant these days with the way the server works with spread out nodes, unpredictable loads and the range of client hardware and latency without that jump cloak its feasible you could end up loading into the system to find your already podded by the time your fully loaded in and have ship control if someone was waiting on the other side.
Tytos Khamez
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#836 - 2014-08-11 21:44:18 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Tytos Khamez wrote:

On a less relevant note to this discussion, why do ships even cloak after coming out of a WH? How does a ship that doesn't have a cloaking device cloak? Is it a function of the WH? If so, that's just dumb. Seems to me that if you've just been flung through a cosmic rip in space/time, you're probably not going to be exiting it in a stationary state, and you sure as hell won't be cloaked.

Anyway, that's my 2 isk.


Its more a technical consideration than a gameplay mechanic, though less relevant these days with the way the server works with spread out nodes, unpredictable loads and the range of client hardware and latency without that jump cloak its feasible you could end up loading into the system to find your already podded by the time your fully loaded in and have ship control if someone was waiting on the other side.


Makes perfect sense... thanks! -1 for immersive gameplay, +1 for not jumping straight into a death scene.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#837 - 2014-08-11 22:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Alright ladies and gents, get your tinfoil hats ready coz this one is a pretty good one. Pure unadulterated tinfoil hattery and Grrr Goons with a solid amount of conspiracy, you have been warned. (Conspiracy theory stuff is fun, you don't have to believe in it to make a convincing case. Also bored.)

**This assumes a great deal of competency and is the primary reason why I don't necessarily believe any of this. I'm a fan of the saying; 'don't attribute to malice that witch can be attributed to incompetence'.

Now I've heard people say that CCP Fozzie has a hard on for mitani and that the Goons want to take over/ruin eve. I don't normally put much stock in that but lets look at the last batch of Wormhole specific targeted changes and events that have taken place with this in mind.

- Discovery scanner. I'm kinda on the fence regarding if this was planned or not or if it was just a knock on effect but the general consensus was that it did make farming safer. Lets call this one inconclusive.

- Grav site removal. Pretty much killed WH Mining for the most part. NS mining is better anyways, everyone knows that, yey infinate minerals and local!

- Soon after these changes the whole Goons in WH space thing happened and they got kicked out, yey us!

- The API stats removal. This was a pretty big one and with a single simple change the biggest baddest and arguably most dangerous WH corp decided to leave WH space. Kings of log off traps and no slouches with rage rolling it'd be hard to find any C5-6 corp that hasn't lost at least one farming fleet, or system for that matter, to these nutters. I know we did.

- Increased WHs from Null and LS. As a nullie I've been part of at least one attempt at killing a hole rolling fleet (Got foiled by a DC of our inside scout) and we've killed plenty of wormholers just from the WHs spawning in our own and allied systems.

- Effectively un-collapsible frig holes going to, you guessed it, null. A 50 man AF fleet will easily kill a farming fleet and Goons sure do love their Harpy fleets. They will also decimate lower class fleets, both PvP and PvE. Also Wolf Holes.

- Second static in C4s. Now we don't know what they are yet but if a decent amount of them go to Null then this will seal the fate of any C4 farmers that manage to escape the frig holes. Easy as pie to get a big BS fleet in there and then just titan bridge additional BS/Ishtars to the static once hole control has been established to evict farmers. Lets call this one inconclusive till we know what statics there will be. (Fozzie did say there would be a pattern to it)

- The big one, the Mass distance rolling. Any big or small corps still managing to live in WH space after all the above ways for Null (any not just Goons) to kill them up will leave WH space from pure frustration as more and more smaller corps (Plankton I believe were Mitani's words) leave and rage rolling for PvP or borderline safe PvE becomes impossible.



So what's the end result? A barely inhabited and very safe WH space perfect for seeding a couple dozen Goon farming corps and RMTing Mitani a nice big house and shiny new car.

Ok so that last bit is over the top but I did warn you to bring your tinfoil, this one's a doozy Lol (I worked really hard on this, give me a Dinsdales out of 10 score pls)

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#838 - 2014-08-11 22:55:17 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Alright ladies and gents, get your tinfoil hats ready coz this one is a pretty good one. Pure unadulterated tinfoil hattery and Grrr Goons with a solid amount of conspiracy, you have been warned. (Conspiracy theory stuff is fun, you don't have to believe in it to make a convincing case. Also bored.)

**This assumes a great deal of competency and is the primary reason why I don't necessarily believe any of this. I'm a fan of the saying; 'don't attribute to malice that witch can be attributed to incompetence'.

Now I've heard people say that CCP Fozzie has a hard on for mitani and that the Goons want to take over/ruin eve. I don't normally put much stock in that but lets look at the last batch of Wormhole specific targeted changes and events that have taken place with this in mind.

- Discovery scanner. I'm kinda on the fence regarding if this was planned or not or if it was just a knock on effect but the general consensus was that it did make farming safer. Lets call this one inconclusive.

- Grav site removal. Pretty much killed WH Mining for the most part. NS mining is better anyways, everyone knows that, yey infinate minerals and local!

- Soon after these changes the whole Goons in WH space thing happened and they got kicked out, yey us!

- The API stats removal. This was a pretty big one and with a single simple change the biggest baddest and arguably most dangerous WH corp decided to leave WH space. Kings of log off traps and no slouches with rage rolling it'd be hard to find any C5-6 corp that hasn't lost at least one farming fleet, or system for that matter, to these nutters. I know we did.

- Increased WHs from Null and LS. As a nullie I've been part of at least one attempt at killing a hole rolling fleet (Got foiled by a DC of our inside scout) and we've killed plenty of wormholers just from the WHs spawning in our own and allied systems.

- Effectively un-collapsible frig holes going to, you guessed it, null. A 50 man AF fleet will easily kill a farming fleet and Goons sure do love their Harpy fleets. They will also decimate lower class fleets, both PvP and PvE. Also Wolf Holes.

- Second static in C4s. Now we don't know what they are yet but if a decent amount of them go to Null then this will seal the fate of any C4 farmers that manage to escape the frig holes. Easy as pie to get a big BS fleet in there and then just titan bridge additional BS/Ishtars to the static once hole control has been established to evict farmers. Lets call this one inconclusive till we know what statics there will be. (Fozzie did say there would be a pattern to it)

- The big one, the Mass distance rolling. Any big or small corps still managing to live in WH space after all the above ways for Null (any not just Goons) to kill them up will leave WH space from pure frustration as more and more smaller corps (Plankton I believe were Mitani's words) leave and rage rolling for PvP or borderline safe PvE becomes impossible.



So what's the end result? A barely inhabited and very safe WH space perfect for seeding a couple dozen Goon farming corps and RMTing Mitani a nice big house and shiny new car.

Ok so that last bit is over the top but I did warn you to bring your tinfoil, this one's a doozy Lol (I worked really hard on this, give me a Dinsdales out of 10 score pls)


Wow...

Who tied your shoe laces this morning?

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#839 - 2014-08-11 23:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
I see irony is lost on certain parts of nullsec, what a surprise Roll

Also reading comprehension but at this point thats a given Lol

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#840 - 2014-08-12 00:42:50 UTC
I like the idea of mass changing your double-tap timer. Do this one instead.