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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Tom Dirtdiver
Unicorn Haters
#641 - 2014-08-08 02:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tom Dirtdiver
CCP is once again a master of ignoranz and abuse. Ignoranz to their own creativty and abuse from the CSM...

WH Space is in the most cases the home of small and middle sized corps, starting from 5 to 50 Members.

The only reason i see in this changes are they dont want the lil ones survive in the WH Space. Any other reasons are fake or simply lies.

The only group who gets their sugar out of this deal, are the big ones, who can afford great escortfleets for Roling or Closing Holes.

We WH Citizens are aware, if we live in High/Low/Null Sec we need to obey to the Empires, and i dont mean the NPC Empires... But in WH Space we are Masters of our own luck. There are days we win, and are days we loose. But to change a working system only for the Sake of changing, damn, if thats now the case at CCP, than some ppl should look for a new work to do.

The only reason to violently get this changes to work, is to Terraform the WH Space a great distance nearer to NullSec...

The time of this game are over who it was a Sandbox, it gets every year closer to what the big ones want, they get it. They only sell it cheap as a Sandbox.

I feel like this is a slow big merchandise campaign of a big firm to sell us garbage...

Panem et circenses
Marra Moto
Deadspace Knights
#642 - 2014-08-08 02:32:13 UTC
We have lived in c5 black hole when nobody wanted them. We made it home for 4 years. We are just a small group of friends. This change will totally destroy our play style. CCP is Killing the small corps with this change.
Zic Izia
Dark Debts Inc
#643 - 2014-08-08 02:34:24 UTC
Hey,

I run a small industrial corp that i have some friends come in and out of as they need a safe haven. I also spend a lot of time in lower C wormholes with this corp or with another sister corp. This kills the way I enjoy my wh. Do I button up? Yes.

Do I still lose ships closing holes, mining, etc? Yes. This just makes it too difficult with 2-3 friends to enjoy our slice of EvE.

I'm just hugely disappointed. There were so many ways to go without changing existing features for the worse.
Zan Ward
Deadspace Knights
#644 - 2014-08-08 02:42:16 UTC
Boo? I've flown logistics for at least a year and a half with my core group, and I think we're about ready to failscade based on these changes.

That's on us, but it doesn't seem like we're alone.
MicroNova
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#645 - 2014-08-08 04:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: MicroNova
CCP Fozzie's states the Dev's intentions for the Hyperion patch are:

1) Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most haven’t changed in many years
2) Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to ‘tame’ and control wormhole mechanics
3) Address some of the imbalance between wormhole environment effects
4) Address some of the imbalance between wormhole classes

(Numbering is mine)

At first glance the MBSD change seems to satisfy all 4 aspects, however after considering many of the well presented salient points in this thread it becomes clear that the MBSD would actually work against the first half of goal 2 and the entirety of goal 4.

In regards to #2. The ability to collapse a WH is the ability to "engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life" IMHO this is the premier reason to live in a WH. In many ways we are using the emergent mechanic of rolling to a new chain of WH's as a content generation tool.

Currently we can close undesirable links to avoid certain hostile situations, but more often than not we are proactively seeking connections that have a substantial positive effect on content creation, whether that is PVP, PVE, Travel, Logistical efforts, or Exploration. This closely correlates to Hilmar's 2013 Fanfest Keynote speech when he describes a jetcan mining op... wait... they're doing what??? holy crap that's cool and better than what we thought.

In regards to #4. MBSD would make rolling much more risky for smaller groups (who presumably live in C1's, 2's & 3's) perhaps to the point of reducing players to POS spin instead of taking the risks of ship loss (which proportionally have much higher value to a smaller corp). Clearly this is the opposite of the stated intent.

Further, our current practice satisfies the first half of #2 far better than the MBSD. Yes, it comes at the expense of the latter half, but the benefits of being able to explo-roll (to generate all types of content) vs rage-roll (create a one jump link so a corp can easily deploy a capital supported force) is an important distinction to consider.

One idea that would satisfy all of the stated goals could be a deployable module that facilitates collapsing wormholes.

In use, the capsuleer would activate the module and protect it while the timer runs. At the end of each cycle it would collapse the hole by reducing a portion of the remaining useable mass. To facilitate an aggressor, the opposing side of the WH would have it's signal strength in the probe scanner boosted to 100% as well as giving a visible and audible state change to the WH itself (I recommend the sound of a screaming goat).

The amount of time the module would need to collapse could be scaled to impede rage-rolling but still allow timely closing for explo-rolling while automatically working faster on lower class/mass WH's. The environmental effects of the various WH types could also play into the time required to collapse the WH. Perhaps an hour for a vanilla C6, scaling down to 10 minutes for a C1.

Additionally some interesting combat scenarios could develop from having a variety of meta / tech / faction variants that provide different ranges vs EHP vs resists vs timings. Additional curbs could also be provided through having it consume some type of PI produced fuel, it's cost, how it is created in game, and the skill tree.

Yes, this module would make it possible for a lone pilot to collapse an uncontested WH. However, in this capsuleers opinion, the benefit of being able to find and generate content outweighs the downsides of controlling the wormhole mechanics. This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's.
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#646 - 2014-08-08 04:59:15 UTC
MicroNova wrote:

One idea that would satisfy all of the stated goals could be a deployable module that facilitates collapsing wormholes.



No - WH space doesn't need more risk free closing of wormholes. You want to close the thing - commit your ships

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
MicroNova
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#647 - 2014-08-08 05:20:12 UTC
[/quote]

No - WH space doesn't need more risk free closing of wormholes. You want to close the thing - commit your ships[/quote]

What I described is far from risk free.

Have you got a better idea?
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#648 - 2014-08-08 05:22:38 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
MicroNova wrote:

One idea that would satisfy all of the stated goals could be a deployable module that facilitates collapsing wormholes.



No - WH space doesn't need more risk free closing of wormholes. You want to close the thing - commit your ships


I don't get it. Unless you are rolling a hisec hole any roller will be polarized and the enemy fleet can jump through and catch the ship on the other side? Sure it requires the hunters to commit into an unknown hole, but isn't that how it should be?
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#649 - 2014-08-08 05:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sith1s Spectre
MicroNova wrote:

Have you got a better idea?


Put webs on the battleship/s that you use in addition to your capital ship - web the cap off and have it warp back to the hole @ 0?

Doesn't seem that hard tbh

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#650 - 2014-08-08 05:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Andiedeath
EDIT: Original post came out wrong. I hope NGR puts this on the Agenda for tonights NGR AU show. As I'm going to enjoy getting in on the conversation and giving a point of view from a group other than c5/c6s... But yeah I agree with you Sith1s, it is way too easy to roll holes now.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#651 - 2014-08-08 05:54:18 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
MicroNova wrote:

Have you got a better idea?


Put webs on the battleship/s that you use in addition to your capital ship - web the cap off and have it warp back to the hole @ 0?

Doesn't seem that hard tbh

That would take as long as slowboatin back to to hole.
The setup to do that also needs more people.
The result wilt be no more rolling with caps unless there is a big backup fleet.
And so no one will be catching a lone closing cap anymore.
This change is terrible.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
bongpacks
Rules of Acquisition
#652 - 2014-08-08 05:58:12 UTC
I've been living in a C2 wormhole since 2010 and I just can't get behind this mass based spawn distance...thing. I'm in a small corp of only three active players with one having an alt so you could say four pilots altogether. It's already a chore for us to roll for a new static and you're trying to make that take even longer AND more dangerous?

Often times I find myself the only player even online in my corp, this is just going to make POS logistics with an orca a huge risk even if I can get someone to log on to watch my back. What of the times when I get K162s from high class holes with HUGE alliances in them? Am I supposed to just log off or maybe you want me to go into K-Space and waste tons of time for minimal reward. You already killed solo griefing in highsec which was basically the only fun thing I found to do in K-space besides collecting corpses.

I like the majority of the changes proposed for the new release, but I feel that the MBSD and the frigate holes are just geared towards the huge already established wormhole entities. Really what small corp is going to field a frigate fleet into a hostile wormhole? I'll probably be called out for not looking at this from all angles or even whining/entitlement ect. but the change isn't going to be good for small corps like my own. The only plus side I can think of would be if I dedicated myself to camping my statics all day long as it would be easier to catch the occasional trespasser but that's just as boring as mining imho.

The ideas for deployables that can collapse wormholes I like, would give players like me that often find themselves playing during their corporations off times an option for rolling holes that doesn't involve an hour of smashing at it with a BS or quite carelessly warping around solo with an orca. I think the align time alone for these large ships is risk enough, so what if they can just jump right back through, not like they're going to insta-warp away once they hit the other side.

I have no experience with W-space capital warfare so I can't comment on that. No, just no.
John Starski
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
#653 - 2014-08-08 06:00:57 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
MicroNova wrote:

Have you got a better idea?


Put webs on the battleship/s that you use in addition to your capital ship - web the cap off and have it warp back to the hole @ 0?

Doesn't seem that hard tbh


It's like: yesterday to start your car you needed just to turn the key. Today new rules came out and you need to run 10 circles around it yelling: "CCP rules!", clap 10 times and do a flip in right order then put all 4 wheels back, honk three times and start engine with screwdriver. And randomguy says to you:"It's okay, you can even clap and do a flip in the same time!".
Great, did this guy's advice somehow change the fact that all this actions are pointless and just complete waste of time?
Vasyamba
Dark Echo Club
#654 - 2014-08-08 08:16:59 UTC
I just dont understand why CCP has to change something thats not a problem... the defender already has an advantage of having capitals in there home system, why make it harder for the attackers to field capitals...?
Mindo Junde
Somnium Vita
#655 - 2014-08-08 08:25:22 UTC
Vasyamba wrote:
I just dont understand why CCP has to change something thats not a problem... the defender already has an advantage of having capitals in there home system, why make it harder for the attackers to field capitals...?



I'm afraid the answer is depressingly simple. Properly iterating wormholes, or much else, will take too much developer time away from whatever the current big idea is. So they're left with fiddling round the edges with what can be managed. i.e. this.
We've already had from one of the Horse's mouths that POS code hasn't been touched because its 'too difficult'. Which to my mind says a lot more about CCP than the code in question. I suspect some of the other major player gripes (like Sov) also fall into this category.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#656 - 2014-08-08 08:27:21 UTC
wrote:


It's like: yesterday to start your car you needed just to turn the key. Today new rules came out and you need to run 10 circles around it yelling: "CCP rules!", clap 10 times and do a flip in right order then put all 4 wheels back, honk three times and start engine with screwdriver. And randomguy says to you:"It's okay, you can even clap and do a flip in the same time!".
Great, did this guy's advice somehow change the fact that all this actions are pointless and just complete waste of time?


this Big smile
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#657 - 2014-08-08 09:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
This is a bad change in the wh mechanics. To understand how bad, just imagine that when cyno-ing a group of caps in nullsec you'll have them dropped inside a 40 km diameter sphere. This will just deter any offensive use of capitals in large PvP fights in W-space or null(coming from w-space). Yes I know it's been said a thousand time but I'm under the impression it fell on deaf CCP ears (or is that blind eyes).
P.S. When are you going to remove local in null? Pirate
Eryn Velasquez
#658 - 2014-08-08 10:01:41 UTC
Lenroc Elisav wrote:
....
P.S. When are you going to remove local in null? Pirate


When we get anchorable structures which scan the whole system permanently - even in wh-systems

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#659 - 2014-08-08 10:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jack Miton wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Also, the people in the lower down holes should be pushing for these changes to go through because if it reduces the amount of farming holes - it can only be a good thing for your nanoribbon prices and gas prices.
come on man, the large groups dont give 2 fks about the extra risk because they can protect their rolling fleets.
it actually has the exact opposite result to what youre saying; it screws the small corps, who can't protect their rollers, and hugely benefits the large corps who can.

saying this will have any effect on nano prices is extremely naive. It won't.

PS: If you dont believe me, go back and look at who is happy about this change. The vast majority are people who spend their WH lives in large C5/6 'elite pvp' groups.

Actually, you are both off the ball on this, you are missing the neon, electrically lit elephant in the room.

Every wormhole corp of every side is disadvantaged by this.

But

Who does benefit?

A group with capitals coming from outside, gains every advantage. When have a group from nullsec EVER closed a wormhole when running sites when daytripping?. But they can make absolutely sure they can drop a cyno on a WH corp trying to close it's null. Even better they will be scattered and unable to jump back! Thanks guys! Christmas! Evil

So lets see the feature.

Enables null sec capital daytrippers to camp any incomings to the hole being PvE'd and get somewhat easier hole control when running sites.
Enables nullsec daytrippers to cynocamp outgoing (their way home) nullsec hole to get really really happy kills before or after they are done.
Makes it unacceptably risky or just plain painful, so therefore boring in the extreme, for wormholers to close a null hole if there is as much a a single person in local.

I wondered what the benefit was.

Is this what you meant by encouraging more people into wormhole space?

That'll stop those meddling wormholers from spoiling our fun ™

So CCP please make a deployable available to disrupt cyno landing and bridges in exactly the same way, that has a system wide effect., naturally one would make it be able to cloaked and be invulnerable, that would be balanced with the effects of this.

After all you do seem to be seeking content?

Give us exactly the same mechanism to disrupt an areas operations in KS and use guerrilla asymmetric warfare, and I can accept the downsides of this change, as I have a counter, and a weapon to use. Let US disrupt the logistics and transport of Nullsec and watch space burn.

After all being seen to be fair is a good thing isn't it?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
#660 - 2014-08-08 10:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Samsara Nolte
Thea Nalelmir wrote:
What is this particular change supposed to do again?


Uhmm, by metrics sure rolling WHs is "easy" the pros have it down to an art form, but that is after a lot of practice. Don't believe me? Have someone do it without any experience and see what happens. Rage-rolling only really happens with local superiority, without that it becomes really dangerous. If you want more engagement in WHs you need more people in WHs. More people and rage-rolling becomes a lot harder, there is always the chance to get dropped on and your rolling can get stomped on. The real problem is that you have to find people doing it. The extra 30 seconds maybe a minute that this will add is pointless. All you have to do is have another 'toon web you to about 180 Km away, and another stationed there to web ya back, it that easy. This entire code turns into a waste of time, leaving very little input.



Yeah like it is so easy to do that - I lost count on how many times my alliance had an cloaked Interdictor parked next to a wh waiting for the other site to come online or bring something to our side ... Before this proposed change (no i´m not gonna accept this is happening I´ havent given up the hope yet) we had in most case hope that they don´t wait long enough for their timers to reset ... when this goes live all we have to is wait till they try to close it ... and when they try your above stated trick they will be in a world of hurt - because this will exactly be the thing we will be waiting for - the moment he warps away in whatevcer kind of ship the bubble will be up ... forcing him to crawl back to the hole and if his friends aren´t abel to bring in superior numbers through the already damaged hole, which is quite a possibility since we are a rather small alliance - he will lose not only his ship but his capsule as well.
And to be honest i also lost count on how many occasion we discovered that we had a cloaked interdictor sitting within our hole for hours before we came online.
So please for the love of god, could you and everybody else who mentioned it please stop to bring this supposed "counter" up and up again, because it clearly isn´t one to the new mechanics.
This change, like i tried to explain at lenght here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4879997#post4879997 before in the now closed thread does nothing else than tipping the scales in favour of the big wh corps and the null and low sec cartels - then closing a hole leading into such space, when there is just one single person in local capable of opening a cyno will be a painstaking endeavour - and they, contrary to common belief exist, null sec systems where people are actually playing the game. (They are rare but, once upon a time you´ll find one)
I once again appeal to CCP that this change is the first step in handing over w-space to the big ones.
This will like many have stated wage the engangments in short term timeframes but long term there will be a wasteland of activity in w-space, then to be honest with you i´have my reasonable doubt that my alliance is gonna survive this change ... well we most likely will try to adapt, but you don´t find guys ypu get along with and can trust overnight - exspecially the trust part is an utmost necessity given the pos rights - and i sincerly doubt our actuall member base will be to happy about the need to grow at least 3-4 times bigger just to not lose ships every time we try to close a null or other big hole.
And to furhter this if i woulk have wanted to be part of the big ones i would be living in null ...

Well what i would like to add is that ccp is raising the risk for everybody living in w-space a great deal but where is the increase in reward - i always though risk equalls reward - which implies by raising the stakes at which you have to play the riches schould be raised as well.
Man life would be easy if i could just make hundreds of Millions by tending to moon mining pos, protected by a huge alliance ... but we living in wh have to fight the hardest rats, while doing that exposing our ships to potential enemys lying already in wait or rolling into us, and are given the hardest earned isk there is - we don´t get bounty directly paid to our wallets we have to loot and salvage the wrecks to get items, which we have to store in our pos sitting in w-space, potentially being at risk to be destroyed ... wait for days to come ... where we find an exit to be able to bring the loot outside for it to be sold on the market ... having on the way to the market cross several w-space systems permanently being at risk of losing the hard earned loot ... which is gonna leave you with nothing ... what actually is gonna happen a lot more often given these changes .... sarcasm on"but all in all sounds quite reasonable, everybody atm not living in w-space is gonna want to after this changes" saracasm out

i just don´t see it - sorry.