Wormholes

If these changes go ahead, then rage rolling for smaller groups will die because of the double whammy of rolling being more dangerous and tedious, plus the massive disadvantage of the invading party compared to the defender when deploying caps, because of the issue of spawning out of refit and capacitor feeding range.

It's not so bad for large alliances like NoHo, we'll probably change tactics, with a specialised rolling cap and defensive fit BS for rage rolling, and for the fight itself go with a 50+ T3 and Guardian blob to counter the inevitable cap escalation by the defenders. I think it'll pan out like this - because only large alliances will be able to field a viable offensive T3 blob, farming will get safer overall, so the number of bears will go up. We'll actually benefit, as the K162 not spawning until jumping in will give an edge to the attacker with a 50 man blob formed up.

For people not able to field a 50 man blob, that leaves opportunistic kills of rolling crews (now easier, but the caps will be ****-fit) and the good old log in trap. In summary, great for big groups, and a massive kick in the spuds for those C5/C6 PVPers who can field 15-30 pilots.

Please CCP, take our concerns on board - whilst well intentioned, the mass-based spawn is going to hurt the up and coming and intermediate sized groups the most, and for the bigger groups make life more boring and less varied. The big dogs will just get bigger, smaller entities be forced to congeal together (I use this term deliberately) and we'll end up becoming mini-Goons in our little wormhole ghetto.

I'm not against change, but I can't see how this will improve anything?

Make the spawn thingy and remove the polarization.

+1

Shake the Ant Farm!

I think we'll adapt. Here's why:

WH's are hard. That's why we conquered them. They challenged us, so we made them work for us.

Do these changes have an effect on WH life? of course they do. Will there be a mass exodus from WHs because of the changes? I doubt it. Just as before, we will figure out new ways to roll, and will probably figure out new ways to counter roll.

In fact the only thing I see most effected is solo expo and small cap expo fleets. And that has been an op ISK making venture in the game for a long time (we'd all admit that).

I say bring it on the changes. We will adapt.

Also, the people in the lower down holes should be pushing for these changes to go through because if it reduces the amount of farming holes - it can only be a good thing for your nanoribbon prices and gas prices.

come on man, the large groups dont give 2 fks about the extra risk because they can protect their rolling fleets.
it actually has the exact opposite result to what youre saying; it screws the small corps, who can't protect their rollers, and hugely benefits the large corps who can.

saying this will have any effect on nano prices is extremely naive. It won't.

PS: If you dont believe me, go back and look at who is happy about this change. The vast majority are people who spend their WH lives in large C5/6 'elite pvp' groups.

QFT

I'm going to go against what most people are saying and say these changes are good.

All it will do is add more risk to closing connections (and an extra minute tops to closing holes) and affect all the small farming holes that we all have (come on, own up to it. Almost every big group many people with alt farming holes)

Also, the people in the lower down holes should be pushing for these changes to go through because if it reduces the amount of farming holes - it can only be a good thing for your nanoribbon prices and gas prices.

20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).

I just reviewed you kb. It's impressive, but not really wh related for the most part. I welcome your viewpoint, but with this character I'll have to weight your opinions with your lack of wh experiences. (really a great kb though - I may be applying based on how things turn out here)

Since this is not Null we are talking about, I really want to put emphasis on this - In W-Space, many fights happen on wormholes.
If dreads land too far away from carriers, a refit is not possible, and the fight is lost against the defending fleet, which can warp to whichever range it pleases as one.

This change will not provide the content you are looking for - it will perhaps provide ganks, but thats it. Pilots will become much more risk averse and less pvp will happen.

Please realize the difference in mechanics we are talking about - mass limitations, no cynos, nothing you can effectively do when your dread lands 20km away from your carrier.