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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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John Starski
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
#421 - 2014-08-07 07:09:04 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Schleiferius wrote:
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight "random KB Link where WE won :P" if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(



This is what it nails down


Setup a tac 150 km off both sides of the WHs, have Rapiers either side and all 3 points are made mute as it will add about 20 (maybe a touch more) seconds to the time it takes for you to make each pass.



It'll take much more than 20 seconds. And you know... This is all about CCP. Why create new content and fix stuff they promised players to fix years ago when they can remake and complicate things that work perfectly for absolutely no good reason. It's called "procrastination" if i'm not mistaken. There're thouthands ideas on forums how to make wh more dangerous\random\exciting and this change... The only idea that i see behind this is to kick small wh corps from wormholes.
Abydos Strong
Abby Inc
#422 - 2014-08-07 07:09:27 UTC
yeah, I am sure this has all been said before now in this thread...but CCP really? what are you thinking? I can see some benefits for certain things, would be easier to get ganks sitting on a HS static and waiting for curious people to stick their heads in to look for example, but the trade off will be that you make it impossible for small wh corps to effectively generate a living. if you need multiple battleships (or orcas) to close a hole, plus a reasonably sized fleet to protect said hole crashers if they are jumped, then you put rolling whs out of reach of small/mid sized corps. Like for example, say a wh corp has 12 active players with various online times, so your average crew at any given moment is 2-4 people. with the current system, they can effectively roll holes. If you make the proposed changes, then they are almost guaranteed to die if they encounter hostiles, as they cannot field a large enough fleet to defend their rolling ships, and the ships cannot flee effectively.

Also, as others have said, frequent rolling is absolutely necessary for the life of a wh corp. This plan will make the risk vs reward too high for smaller outfits, so in the end all you will have will bea handful of large wh corps and a lot of dead space for them to troll looking for targets. I begin to think that this is what CCP wants anyway.

If you must do this, which you shouldn't, then the only way to keep w space from dying that I can think of would be to increase the rewards of living in wh space. maybe dramatically increased NPC prices on blue loot or the ability to mine high end moons in w space. Something.

Please do not ruin Wh space for those of us who have no interest in low or null. W Space is a wonderful environment to play this game in, and I do not see myself continuing if it is no longer an option, as this change would seem to dictate.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#423 - 2014-08-07 07:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Janeway84
Some people i know even said they gonna unsub their accounts if this change goes through + the frigate size wh in its current iteration. Please ccp dont make my friends unsub!

Changing the sleeper site triggers would been a prefered change than this.
or being ganked on the wh randomly by sleepers.

People are talking the changes are to force people to go to nullsec or unsub.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#424 - 2014-08-07 07:22:18 UTC
I am generalyl against the change alongside everybody in our pitiful small corp.

But guess its not really for us to make the content. Usual answer - get more people. Know what? We will just pack up and go hisec mining, or join null.

Forcing people to group up just so they are able to somehow control environment and their ability to create content, WAY TO GO!

MOAR NULL STYLE WH BLOCS WE NEED.

As I generally enjoy what CCP does, this pissed me off to no end. But who cares about the small ones? right.
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#425 - 2014-08-07 07:31:18 UTC
Not really a fan of this. Maybe tone down the ranges a bit.
Qel'Droma
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#426 - 2014-08-07 07:45:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the changes to wormhole jump spawn distance that we proposed in our recently released dev blog.

I want to remind people that the best way to have your views heard is to state your case calmly, politely and with logical reasoning.

Whether you like this idea or don't like this idea, make sure to let us know exactly why you hold your opinion, with as much detail as possible.

This change is just going to lead to less content and less fights. Do not want.
Zapp Brannign
Phoenix of the Black Sun
#427 - 2014-08-07 07:52:12 UTC
Quote:
1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.


This, please reconsider ccp
Verse Askold
Bedtime Stories
#428 - 2014-08-07 08:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Verse Askold
this forces smaller groups to become bigger, but with this change no one will want to join WH groups anymore(good old risk vs. reward calc.) and as a result smaller groups will either dissapear or move in together with other smaller groups to form bigger groups or or join bigger ones which will in the end lead to quite some bigger entities but no fights since they live in 30 out of 2498 w-space systems and will never connect to each other except someone ragerolls...oh wait...

imho it will just make w-space less populated than it already is and i cant think that this is the intention you have for your change do you?
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#429 - 2014-08-07 08:02:47 UTC
Verse Askold wrote:
this forces smaller groups to become bigger, but with this change no one will want to join WH groups anymore(good old risk vs. reward calc.) and as a result smaller groups will either dissapear or move in together with other smaller groups to form bigger groups or or join bigger ones which will in the end lead to quite some bigger entities but no fights since they live in 30 out of 2498 j-space systems and will never connect to each other except someone ragerolls...oh wait...

imho it will just make w-space less populated than it already is and i cant think that this is the intention you have for your change do you?




I just dont get these posts... We regularly PVE in PVP fit fleets... WH space will be a PVPers dream... Lots of ISK and PVP as only PVPers and supported carebears will live there!

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
xWrockx
SummaTechnologiae
#430 - 2014-08-07 08:03:34 UTC
Terrible idea.

Lets be frank, this change is aimed at putting more risk in living in c5-c6 holes. Everything less than that is effectively untouched. With sleeper agro change in last couple of releases, PvE already got little more risky.

Demographic of c5/c6 space is such that either there are small corps (lets say less than 10 pilots) in one space, and primary goal of yours is PvE, medium corps (10-30) adding some casual PvP in the mix, or large dominating corps (30+) which are PvP sharks in WH space.

This change will only even more secure necessity for more hands in single system for activity to be viable.

This change will significantly hinder ability to secure system for small corps to the extent that this activity will lead to abandoning of systems. Already very high risk in ISK in space / # of pilots. Very counter productive, very risky, potential breaking point. Very easy math, if risk outweighs reward (which this leads to), there is no point in living in capital PvE.

For medium corps this also reduces rewards available as fights are usually 20+ pilots on each side, and for ANY activity almost ALL pilots must be online, which is rare and dumb. If not, they will be easy pray for large corps.

Large corps on the other hand see no increase in risk, since this effects maybe # of holes that can be rolled per hour. Nothing less.

So space will be more empty than it currently is.

Myself, living in a small corp in wh, having most of PvP in nulls not in WH, this could lead of to much risk against reward and abandoning idea, since we usually have online 4+- pilots for PvE, and around 8-10 for PvP roam in WH. There is no point in 10 ppl against all other corps in their home systems.

Any dodge and change of sig's will lead to most corps POSing up and just sitting there until trouble passes somewhere else.

I don't see a point in a game mechanics where only thing that counts is # of pilots in space as answer for any action.

I sincerely hope that this is scrapped as terrible idea it is.
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#431 - 2014-08-07 08:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Serendipity Lost wrote:

I didn't look at your other ideas, but this one solves nothing. Let me lay out the problem clearly for you.

It's not mine, it was conveyed many times at the start of this topic by other participants.
Serendipity Lost wrote:

WH mechanics are fine. They generate a lot of great fights. WH mechanics aren't broken.
This change will affect something that isn't broken so said change is bad. Any change to a great (and obviously loved) mechanic is bad. Tweaking a bad idea doesn't change the fact that it is a bad idea.

I assume that devs and CSM discussed that matters and came to conclusion, that additional risk element should be introduced, what were done by binding spawn spread to the mass of ships so that big ones were placed futher from the hole after entering the system. It's not about "creating more fights" or "making it better", it's about making those activities in question - hole's rollover, capital fleet invasion to neighboring hole - more risky by nature. I also assume that decision already is a new reality.

The main concern that was reiterated many times is that with such spread capitals won't be able to refit after entering the system as they could be spawned too far away from each other. As one solution to this making them spawn still far away from the hole, but in one tight pack was proposed.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#432 - 2014-08-07 08:19:35 UTC
Why not just make it so that rolling a hole greatly increases the chance of an incoming spawning in that system?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
#433 - 2014-08-07 08:40:42 UTC
This is a good change. Will make the rage rolling gank bit harder and give the other side of the WH the opportunity to engage from their side while the rolling party cannot insta close if the rolled target is a bit too hard Lol
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#434 - 2014-08-07 08:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
blackish person wrote:


3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

Or may be, just maybe, they will become bored enough to take this somewhat greater risk? Like, really, what do you need all those billions you farm here for? To buy plexes and subscribe another 10 alts? To pimp all 10 of your capitals with officer stuff? Or may be you play game to actually have fun? Even if you can lost a couple of dreads while at it?

And if you just farming WH to pay your PvP bills somewhere else (in nulls or FW), than nothing bad happens too, you will still have your fun in nulls/FW.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
ISK Lord
Negative Density
#435 - 2014-08-07 08:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISK Lord
First up, I want to say that I share the same views as the overwhelming majority of our player base in No Response alliance (200+ members). We live in a C5 and enjoy rolling wormholes to find PvP.

We find this change will ruin our style of game play, and that of the other medium-large groups looking for fights. Why? I'll explain the same thing that pretty much every (angry!) w-space entity has before:

Currently people roll a C5 or C6 static wormhole about every 10 minutes looking for pew when rage rolling (this includes scouting in the system you connect to). Let's say your group rolls the wormhole for 2 hours in one day at peak activity time. That means you get access to:

120mins / 10mins = 12 wormholes

Now lets say you put this annoying change live, and we can only roll wormholes every 20 minutes:

120mins / 20mins = 6 wormholes

CCP do you really think people are going to log on to see the other side of just 6 wormholes a night? Have you ever played EVE and done rage rolling? Seriously...?

Now lets assume we have a stack of nano battleships to close wormholes with (the only likely solution to this tedious mechanic), how many larger entities can field that many ships without taking a major risk? I'm guessing <20 groups.

What you effectively do with this mechanic is make it nigh on impossible for smaller groups to roll or close wormholes without being easy meat. Yes, there will be PvP resulting from this but do you think the smaller groups will stay in W-Space?

No... they will leave!

Do you think the larger groups will stay in W-Space if you halve the rage rolling time?

No... they will leave!

I'm not sure how many different ways there are to explain the above. It is so obvious to the player base, and we're totally dismayed CCP cannot see this. This means CCP designers are either:

1). Misguided and do not understand the negative implications of this feature on the game play experience
2). Trying to force people out of W-Space and reduce subscriptions to EvE Online (obviously not true)

Personally, I like the overall rebalance CCP are looking at for W-Space (well overdue). But please let's have some new content rather than yet another rebalance.

Is there noone at CCP with any imagination???

If you don't have the employees to do it currently how about hiring some of your player base to design some new content?

*** REBALANCE DOES NOT EQUAL NEW CONTENT ***
XOS Psymon
Ehefkae
#436 - 2014-08-07 08:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: XOS Psymon
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Random thought:

drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right? Blink
Oh i see the whole point of this Patch : making MMJD industry grow!


Yeah and then, if a dictor is ready a jump from another system in the chain, bubble both sides and wait for you in your home place, what is going to happend? (According Dictor is not alone OFC), plus rolling C5/C6 WH with BS is a bit looking like "Oh look I am trying to empty that swiming pool with a glass!"

The faster you chain collapse, the higher chance you have to get a fight with an entity farming in the next system, plus most of the time they can formup pretty quick to get a fight.


EDIT : Younger corporations are "not that rich".
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#437 - 2014-08-07 08:55:27 UTC
And also, this
Andiedeath wrote:

All it means is people will need to work better together to rage roll WHs... Carriers can still insta warp with webs the same as Ocras... If you then think about it for more than 2 seconds there is an EASY workaround for those that want to rage roll...

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Harrison Ellwood
Omicron Ceti Operations
#438 - 2014-08-07 08:57:18 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:


While you can of course just disagree with the proposed changes, it is much more helpful if you list the reasons and explain why you disagree. The post above by Traiori is a good example of constructive feedback.

Thank you!


It also concisely explains why this is such a bad idea.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#439 - 2014-08-07 08:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I would still like to see capital fights in wormhole space but as an invading force will no longer be able to jump their into a hostile gang with the home advantage of their own capital support, it doesn't look like it will happen anymore.

If you decide to go balls deep and jump 3 capitals through a c5/c6, there is a good chance that all capitals will be out of refit range and will probably die fast as a result. The one thing that could help in this situation is the Mobile Deport... However, the ehp on those things is woefully inadequate as we all know.

CCP, either fix this issue or be responsible for ruining big fights in wormhole space!

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Simyaldee
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#440 - 2014-08-07 09:07:56 UTC
Hour and a half of my life gone, ffs.

Anyway, I can't say anything that hasn't already been said by Wormholers, and I completely agree with them btw, and I really don't know much because I PvP in Lowsec and only rarely in WH Space so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

But for everyone who's wondering about HOW CCP came up with this change, especially since the Wormhole CSM candidate seems adamantly against it, but has mysteriously gone silent for some reason(squints suspiciously at NDA), look no further then corebloodbrothers statement.

corebloodbrothers wrote:
Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?

Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.

The rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?



I am going to assume (until someone from CCP or CSM says differently) that this is a big reason for the change. Null Sec CSM members probably pressured for this change because they thought that being able to simply jump back through with your caps was to easy. Despite the fact that Wormholers already have a massive chain around there neck because both their options for reinforcement, and retreat, are limited by wormhole mechanics, while k-space members can call whoever, in whatever, from wherever. At the very least, I doubt they would have objected strongly when the fix came up in conversation.

I can only imagine the sheer ridiculousness of being a wormholer under this change. My Militia can already have hard times finding fights in k-space when we can send out multiple scouts to a couple new systems every few seconds via warp, and then follow them, rinse, repeat, for the duration of the fleet.

Having to find fights by rerolling to a random unknown system without any Idea whats in there seems like it would take
infinitely longer. Not to mention the various other acts facilitated by rolling wormholes.

INCREASING time for pretty much ANYTHING in EVE is almost always a bad idea since it already takes significant investment to find fun where other, cheaper games take significantly less.

On the economics side, I am not sure HOW the spawning mechanics work exactly, but it would seem that from the amount of WH systems there are, and the relatively small amount of people who live in them, I'm not sure that being able to roll for sites would effect distribution enough for it to be a problem.

Not only that, but considering the comparatively large advantage held by defenders of being able to ship into whatever and bring however many people to the fight already puts the defenders at a disadvantage. Making one of the primary ships used by Wormholer suddenly 10x harder to use seems a tad ridiculous.

Does this increase risk for Wormhole caps? Yep. Should there risk be increased? Maybe. Does the increase in risk for WH caps make up for all the consequences for the WH community? The overwhelming consensus by pretty much everybody but Goons says no.

Member, Fighter and FC for The Great Harmon Institute of Technology