Wormholes

+ 1 for this being an awesome idea!

All it means is people will need to work better together to rage roll WHs... Carriers can still insta warp with webs the same as Ocras... If you then think about it for more than 2 seconds there is an EASY workaround for those that want to rage roll...

This also means MOAR fights with LESS rage rolling required! As people will NO LONGER be able to jump an Orca or BS into a WH from K Space without being at risk of getting blapped... And if worried get a friend to web you off the WH... Or even better get a fleet to protect you! We will happily fight you!

Awesome change CCP Fozzie! Keep up the great work.

All in all, the changes will reduce the need to rage roll anyway... So the peeps against this change are mostlikely carebears anyways!

The other thing to do is look at this as Bob's Devine way of reducing the number of carebears in W-Space and increase the number of believers that engage each other in righteous battle in is his glorious name!

Stuff

I'm just going to put two and two together here. I believe that WH loot has fallen in price significantly, and the purpose of this change is most likely intended to control that depreciation. It's 'very CCP' to focus on the market above all else.

Look at what they have actually said about it:

We made the assumption that their goal was to increase conflict. But they never actually said that. Their only stated intention was to disrupt W-space operations.

Think about it. We have 50-60 pages of posts saying that this won't actually increase conflict, but actually reduce conflict. And yet they soldier on with the idea, even going so far as to implement it without asking anyone's opinion.

But when placed in the context of trying to disrupt loot farming, it falls neatly into place. If pursuing this goal, they don't care if people are hugging a POS for a whole day. In fact, that's ideal. The amount of conflict wouldn't actually concern them. Just so long as they aren't farming and flooding the market with the product. The frigate holes also make a lot of sense, in this context.

I feel like they are cloaking their intentions.
Maybe we should be trying to provide suggestions on how to control loot farming, without ruining wormhole mechanics?

Really like the sound of these changes. I think not only will newer players be encouraged to enter WH's now because they actually stand a chance of surviving but the pvp and WH gatecamps will still continue successfully. Just take standard gates where everyone spawns 12k from the gate. Gatecamps and pvp thrive there. Yes WH gatecamps will continue campers will just have to extend their bubbles a little farther.

Most excellent idea I must say.

Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight "random KB Link where WE won :P" if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(

I'll cut straight to the obvious change, tldr; here's my suggestion that would allow for rage rolling to continue, yet make it hard to control holes rolling into your system.

If I jump through the static type W237 in my home wormhole, I appear at current range (between 0 and 5km).
If a new sig appears in my WH, a K162, and I jump through it, then I appear at ~mass range~, so I have to either warp off and back or burn back to my hole.

Here's my reasoning: You want us to face more risk and less hole control. We want to be able to roll out hole to find pvp. You have a point in some ways, but you are ignoring the glaring obvious point we are all trying to make. If make it an unsafe pain the the ass to roll holes, we're going to stop doing it at worst. At best it takes us twice/three times as long to roll holes, we roll less holes and find less pvp.

Changing it like this makes it so we can still roll holes just as quickly as we do now, we can still find pvp, and we can still control our static. However:

We face more danger from incoming k162's, we can't slam them closed in the face of someone rolling into us.

We can't easily extract, if we jump back because we are losing, our caps come back scattered and outside of jump range (assuming they aren't polarized to begin with).

Traps can be set. If we are out on a roam and hostiles get between us they can cloak and wait till we come back, jumping back into our home system will put us outside jump range.

I'm sure there's other scenarios more creative people can think of. My point is that it retains the status quo that we want in terms of being able to seek out pvp. Yet increases the danger we face if other people come into us or we are jumping back into our own system. In fact, this would stack the odds in favor of someone jumping into our system from their own static, they would land at 0 whereas if we took the fight to them we would be jumping a k162 and landing at range. TBH someone jumping into another persons home needs the odds stacked in their favor.

Rage rolling, and the forming up, logistics, scouts, etc that are needed is already a HUGE pain in the ass requiring hours of preparation. Do not make that process take twice as long (if it happens at all).

Let me reiterate what EVERYONE ELSE has been saying. This change, as it stands, is a terrible terrible idea. 90% of the time when we roll a hole it's to find pvp. If you make this more difficult, you reduce the pvp that occurs in wormhole space, not increase it. Look at the player feedback here, if you make this change we're going to be saying "I told you so" in 3 months.

If you want a lore reason, then knowing the WH type allows us to calibrate our jump drive engines and stabilize our mass inertia nullifiers. Whereas jumping through an unknown k162 doesn't allow us to calibrate our doohickies. >_>

I'll put replies to other changes (if I have any) in a separate post.

Edit: And to address the first note in the dev blog, this not only breaks things up and adds something new, it does so without destroying the way we find pvp, and also does it in a way that creates some variables on each side, not the same thing no matter which way you go through a WH.

Edit 2 real quick: I do want to say thank you CCP for looking at wormholes, it's always nice to have your gameplay style touched on, and I don't want it to seem like I'm taking that for granted.

Setup a tac 150 km off both sides of the WHs, have Rapiers either side and all 3 points are made mute as it will add about 20 (maybe a touch more) seconds to the time it takes for you to make each pass.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(