Wormholes

Considering the only change you are likely wanting to see is a return to the status quo, I would begin preparing yourself for disappointment.

You set next to Fozzie?

I'm mailing you 2 large Haddok.

Please smack him over the head with the smaller of the two for what he did to my beloved geddon.

The second one..... get a 4 step running start and whack him across the back of the head with it. If (after he gets up) he mentions or you even think he is thinking of mentioning or implementing this mass range mess get a 5 step running start and do it again. If you run out of room or the haddok gets too mushy - let me know - I'll send another.

i have to agree with Nys on this one. By forcing an attacking site to actually give your fleet over to random spawn luck you can loose the entire fight just by jumping in.
i guess new approaches will develope over time but for me its a pro and con for more engagements and right now it seems that probably it will go in the opposite direction in terms of the risk is too high we will not do it. the ones who will still do it are the ones who are doing it right now. so bascially all the major w-space corps/alliances (noho, hk, etc. )

1. capitals don't go through gates, so???
2. there are thousands of gates for you to play on. If you don't like the wh mechanic, then don't fight on wh (in lieu of changing wh).

The wh mechanics are probably the best pvp thing dropped in the game in years. They have led to so many outstanding pvp occurances. They aren't broken and they don't need changed. Lots and lots of guys really like rage rolling as a play style.

This change creates so much negative (2 threadnaught in 24 hrs). At some point I would I'm hoping that it might occur to folks to not change it after all.

Idea which suggested that all caps in a fleet should be placed closer to each other - but whole fleet still on significant distance from wh they entered the system through - should solve the problem. It will allow this cap fleet to refit and fight in full force, and will introduce additional risk simultaneously. So, what the matter? Solution have been found, actually.

I didn't look at your other ideas, but this one solves nothing. Let me lay out the problem clearly for you.

WH mechanics are fine. They generate a lot of great fights. WH mechanics aren't broken.

This change will affect something that isn't broken so said change is bad. Any change to a great (and obviously loved) mechanic is bad. Tweaking a bad idea doesn't change the fact that it is a bad idea.



Here's an example: You work for me. I'm the boss. I show up monday and tell you that I'm getting rid of all your health benefits. You and all the other employees point out it's bad and all the bad effects. As a good and understanding boss I only cut your benefits in half. Does that make me a good and understanding boss? No. Does that make cutting your health benefits in half a good idea? No.

As someone who spends most of their time in worm holes, these changes will drastically diminish of the game.

Being able to have wormhole control isn't a bad thing. For groups wanting to organize such there always the possibility of new holes opening into them. However several of these changes make that harder.

Worm hole mass reg - This makes it much hard for groups who are trying to do wormhole control because of a planned operation.

Distance from worm hole - This makes it much hard to find a new hole, just through and possibly get in a fight. It means that ships are very scattered when they come in. Also groups who are actively rolling holes have to spend far more time doing so.

Wormhole appearance - By waiting till the first person jump through you give the aggressor an unfair advantage, because they had time to form up a fleet on the hole, where the location being open into had no warning. At worse as soon as someone get within range of the then it should show up on the new location. The simple logic is if the worm hole there, it's open on both sides.

I realize that the little news things says that CCP isn't trying to punish Worm Hole people, but it seems that every proposal I've heard since I started playing a bit over a year ago has made things worse. Yet things like POS mechanics which could use some help have been completely ignored.

Undoubtedly one you're expecting a firestorm over. With good reason :) This is a major change to a core mechanic that defines life in W-space.

If you bothered to read the concerns from the other thread, you would know just about all of the reasons why this is bad. Remember, this is a core mechanic that defines life in W-space. It defines how we engage in the majority of our combat situations. Instead of rehashing all of the very well-worded arguments from the other thread, which you have either read or ignored, let me give an example of why it is so bad.

I've already said this is a core mechanic that defines how we engage in the majority of our combat situations. The nature of wormholes means we can hide a fleet on the other side, or in another connected system, away from prying scout eyes. Any scouts entering the hole sniffing for the trap would need to put forth extra effort, besides just checking local and warping to neighboring gates.

The closest comparison to K-space mechanics is the Cyno. You can land your fleet on that group of seemingly helpless ships, as the surrounding systems are empty, when suddenly they light a cyno. In jumps a subcap fleet double that of your own, followed by a couple of capital ships. You were caught completely off-guard, and without significant effort, there was no way for you to know this was coming.

So it is with combat in W-space. We fight on wormholes because they are a natural boundary. You can jump in, and if there is too much trouble, you can jump back and attempt to get away. This carries a danger with it, that of polarization. If you are caught when you make that return jump, you CAN'T get away again. There is no other option except to kill or be killed.


With this change applied to W-space, it would be like your carriers landing up to 20k away from the cyno beacon, and supers and titans even further, in any random direction. Combat refitting, a major strategy in capital combat, would no longer be possible. If this change were made to Cynos and bridging, would anyone bring a Revenant into combat again unless they were DEAD certain it wasn't a trap? How would the use of Supers and Titans change if such a change went into place. This would kill an aspect of gameplay PL is well known for.

Since Orcas and Freighters are also a mainstay of logistics in W-space, and will be impacted by this change, imagine by comparison what effect this would have on jump freighters as they move throughout Nullsec. With a possibility of landing 10-15k away from a station, or inside of the station if RNG is against you, would this increase conflict with harassing logistics traffic, or would it eliminate the use of such expensive ships altogether?

It's easy to see that such a change would have a drastically negative effect if applied to cynos and bridges. Unlike W-space, those are not even the primary mechanics used for encountering combat in Nullsec the way wormholes are for W-space.

So scrap the whole spawn distance change, keeping the 0 - 5km spawn distance we have now.

If you wish to slow down rage-rolling, and add risk to combat rolling holes in the face of larger groups, add one-way polarization timers instead of breaking spawn distances. When you jump into a wormhole, depending on your ship's mass, you may not jump back for a period of time; frigates would have the shortest timer, perhaps only as long as the session change cloak, while capital ships would have times in the order of minutes. This is in addition to the already-present polarization timer, perhaps extended some minor amount, to 6 or 7 minutes The one-way timer provides risk. The two-way timer provides equalization between all ships.

Unlike the spawn distances, this would add meaningful choice to rolling holes in W-space: can I defend my capital ship long enough to jump it back if I need to, or should I use a smaller ship instead? Is it worth hanging my dread's backside out in the wind to easily roll the hole, or should I use a few more people and some Orcas or battleships instead? Smaller groups could still use bigger ships in quiet systems, as they only need to wait out their jump timers, but it's no longer a matter of 10-15 seconds to collapse the hole with virtually no risk.

This would also place risk on rolling fleets comparable to a capital ship jumping to a cyno. It's fuel based, yeah, but it's also capacitor based. You can't immediately jump back to your escape cyno beacon (assuming not tackled) because you have to wait for your cap to regen. The same with jumping back into your originating wormhole system.

Let me bottom line this for you:

The health and activity levels of any WH corp is very closely linked to how often they roll their static.
Rolling the static generates new content, leads to PVP and PVE alike, gives people new chains to scan out, hell, finding things to do in new chains is what you do in active WH corps!

Sure, this change doesnt actually make it impossible to roll your chain but it makes it astronomically more tedious and dangerous.

This change actively discourages small groups from rolling their holes and makes it take much longer for them to do so.
Even for large groups, how many times do you think someone is going to be willing to slowboat their Moros 20km back to the WH, even with full fleet support, before they get super bored and log off?
I don't know what the actuall number will be but I guarantee it will be FAR lower than the number of WHs people are willing to roll in a row currently looking for action.

This change leads to a lack of motivation to roll your chain which directly results in a general decline in activity since less fresh chains = less interaction and less opportunities.
If you want to look at it in another way, it's like restricting the number of jumps a kspace gate can take per hour. The only thing it does is reduce activity.

Please, do NOT implement this change in ANY form.

just a thought - the capitals - which you really want to be bubbled, will land outside a T2 fit hic's influence, enabling them to warp if you've got a hyena/rapier/huginn on grid. Is this deliberate?

Edit:
when are you planning to roll this mechanic out to cynos in low and nullsec - because that's what you're doing to us WH'ers