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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Kadm
Catfish Gumbo
#321 - 2014-08-06 20:38:04 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Kadm wrote:
Sherpa tsi wrote:
Kadm wrote:
I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles.


Probably what will happen is that if a smaller group cannot roll away a larger hostile group, they will just log-off and go play something else, since they have few options for further game play.
I think the proposed jump range changes will make wormhole activity too risky for many activities, and the result will be to reduce game play and content, not increase it. I hope ccp leave this aspect of wh space alone.
Please ccp add more content to wh space rather than making it more difficult for those who already live there, especially smaller groups.



Then stront check their towers. Shoot their POCO's. If they're not fighting with you, why aren't you taking things that they care about? Why aren't you forcing fights? Are you capable of generating content yourself, or do you imagine that rolling into a new hole is just like queuing into an arena in another nameless fantasy MMO, and that you should be automatically served good fights? Go earn your good fights with some hard work.


Not sure if you realize, but grinding that stuff is boring as hell and very time consuming/stupid damgerous, even with 3 dreads on field. Doing it any faster requires seeding which, let's face it, no one will do for minimal returns.


Combat is dangerous. Antagonizing someone into attacking you may result in combat. Huh, I never realized that. Shooting POCO's is a lot less dangerous than shooting towers, so maybe you could try that. It's faster too, and generally infuriates the folks fueling towers right out of their POCO's. Towers can also be killed in a timely manner with subcaps, and if you build a reputation for actually attacking people's homes, you may find that people will defend them more readily from you. You may even find people bringing content to you by attacking your home. Embrace it, it's what you want.
Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#322 - 2014-08-06 20:42:27 UTC
Kadm wrote:


Then stront check their towers. Shoot their POCO's. If they're not fighting with you, why aren't you taking things that they care about? Why aren't you forcing fights? Are you capable of generating content yourself, or do you imagine that rolling into a new hole is just like queuing into an arena in another nameless fantasy MMO, and that you should be automatically served good fights? Go earn your good fights with some hard work.


You won't get fights out of smaller groups RF'ing their pocos/POS. You get people safelogging caps/self destructing things and days of ****** boring wait for timers no action sieges.

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Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#323 - 2014-08-06 20:51:45 UTC
Kadm wrote:
I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles.

Can't be serious.
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That's all you need to know.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#324 - 2014-08-06 20:55:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
You want to make it so shutting statics to get a closed system is hard, but rolling is easy? Do this:
1) Keep the spawn distance as it is now.
2) Anytime a static is closed via exceeding it's mass limit, the new static spawns WITH the K162 already in place.

With this you cannot roll your system closed. If you do, a new static will form that is already connected somewhere, you are still in an open system.

Edit: You can still get a closed system by waiting out the static's natural lifetime. That form of play will remain.

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Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#325 - 2014-08-06 20:55:43 UTC
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Kadm wrote:


Then stront check their towers. Shoot their POCO's. If they're not fighting with you, why aren't you taking things that they care about? Why aren't you forcing fights? Are you capable of generating content yourself, or do you imagine that rolling into a new hole is just like queuing into an arena in another nameless fantasy MMO, and that you should be automatically served good fights? Go earn your good fights with some hard work.


You won't get fights out of smaller groups RF'ing their pocos/POS. You get people safelogging caps/self destructing things and days of ****** boring wait for timers no action sieges.


This. Every single time I've evicted a farmer from their C5, they've logged off freighters and carriers and dreads full of their stuff and just let us burn the structures to the ground. A week later, they're back where they left off no worse for wear.

Structures are cheaper than losing all of your farming caps, so most farmers just eat the minimal loss. I mean you only have to do a few cap escalations to recoup any tower/poco losses.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#326 - 2014-08-06 20:57:19 UTC
This is bad...

I lived in wormholes for years. It has always been great to be able to close statics originating from C5s filled with big wormholes entities.

The risk versus reward at the time was already balanced, as jumping orcas through wormholes in a space filled with hostiles was risky enough.

Now it has become impossible! How can one travel 4 to 8 km with an orca and remain unharmed??

The only people that will remain mostly unaffected by this change and huge W-space entities. Don't do it.

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Rob Cobb
Probe Patrol
#327 - 2014-08-06 21:02:27 UTC
This is CCP turning every WH'er into a ******* gate camper. GG.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#328 - 2014-08-06 21:13:35 UTC
Witchway wrote:
You're assuming all the large entities haven't already been in your place and lived in the lowend. Hard Knocks wasn't born into C5 space, we started out in lowend just like yourself. We paid our dues and we've earned everything we have, you want large systems to live in then you need to make that happen for yourself. No one is forcing you to live in lowend space.

Nope, noone is forcing me, but also noone is forcing you into a highend. Let´s be honest the difference is capwarfare and larger groups. Which is possible because of the way higher (and arguably less risky but more expensive) income and needed because soloing caps is kinda hard.
But you can´t tell me that atm it is harder to roll with capitals than without. You still get your highsecs/lowsecs/lowends connecting. If it is too risky to use a cap you can still use BS. Ofc then it will take 15 minutes instead of 2 and the risk of getting detected is higher.

The question is a) are you entiteled to easier rolling because you risk more isk and b) if this change, whilest it might be "right" it might be too bad for the overall health of highend wormholespace.

And yes, I have had my share of c5 living, I just didn´t like it so much because lowends have more opportunites for solo-/smallestscale gameplay than highends if the rest of your corp isn´t logged in with you.
Rick Stumpf
Nevermore.
#329 - 2014-08-06 21:29:50 UTC
Personally I would like it more if it was opposite. If smaller ship landed farther away. It would keep dreads and carriers in refit range like now. But I wouldn't stop rolling. But from living in a WH I enjoined rolling. But we rolled for PVE more then PVP. We would run all the sites in our static then collapse, and get a fresh one and do all the sites in that one. Rinse Repeat. From my point of view Capitals caught on WHs are screwed either way since there is no aggression timer you can jump and catch them on the other side no problem. If smaller ships had to go farther it would be easier to kill them because u could web them down before they got into jump range. But of course there is a con to having smaller ships appear farther away it would be nearly impossible to bubble a sub cap fleet if they are appearing like 10 to 15km from jump range.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#330 - 2014-08-06 21:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
I'm largely indifferent to these changes but it seems the overall opinion is this:

If there's more of a risk to rolling statics then people won't do them any more to begin with. If they aren't rolling statics they get bored, if they get bored they leave and WHs as a content area die with them.

I also see that a lot of people are either ignoring the new "tiny regen" holes or are disregarding them because no one flies frigates nor do they ever want to. In other words "All WH PVP is dead because I can't bring my shiny proteus to a fight without waiting for a WH to respawn naturally and if I have to wait that long I'm leaving".

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Trent McRent
Mind Collapse
#331 - 2014-08-06 21:36:23 UTC
why do we need this cange?

It's not that we have an easy time in wormholes allready. Everytime we are going out to do some ratting in our static c5 we allways have to, first find a system that is empty, then check all sigs in that and then crit/collapse all wh execpt ours ofc. Then we need to have scouts and stuff on the crit wh just to be sure no one comes in. All this things takes a loong time and a lot (for our size) of people. It's atleast 1.5 hours before we even start to do some sites and whit these changes its going to take for ever to do anything if we want to have a reasonable chance of getting our pve ships out. It's still big risk everytime we take out ships out as this is not our "home" system and this is going to make it allmost impossible to earn some isk for us, as it would take us to long time to do all the preperations. So if we don't have a nice connections from the begining or if we are connected to something big and scary we are all going to just log off for the nigth and that is going to suck.
It's dangerous enough for us to try to collapse the hole if we are connected to something bigger beacuse we usally don't have the people online to collaspe it instantly and they have the abillaty to just assemble a big fleet and jump us. This changes leaves us sadly whit a lot less options for content and that is not a nice place to be. We thrive now as a small corp and can have a lot of fun as it is, but if you impliment this change we migth not be able to live in our hole anymore, beacuse we are to small.
Steven Hackett
NOMADS.
#332 - 2014-08-06 21:57:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Steven Hackett
Traiori wrote:
20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


This..
It honestly makes me a bit worried if the Dev's can't look at a bad idea and think trough the consequences by them self. What is the next genius idea you will waste money and hours on? WH-stabilizers? Incarna 2.0?
If this is the way the game dev's think and work, its a miracle if EVE makes it to the 15 year mark.

I know you asked for us to be constructive, but really?
History shows that by being constructive, the Dev's will tweak the feature. Only by screaming loudly how insanely bad you are(or by gathering half of EVE to shoot a monument, which you will then later try to use as PR), you will listen and rethink what you are doing. Since I don't believe in giving you cake every time you **** up, I will refrain from shooting a monument and just tell you plain out how terrible it all is.
No constructive feedback is required, cause no change to the suggested feature is required, only pressing delete.

As for this:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
EDIT: After rereading my post I feel I should clarify, considering the impact of a feature on gameplay and user experience is also part of being a QA analyst, its just not my place to comment on that on the forums!

Seems you got your work cut out for you - next time it would be cool if user experience was considered, with the ingame environment in mind, before we reached this state. The time/money have already been used, only to throw it in the garbage can. (Lets just hope the game designer(s) is/are man enough to end this awful change and admit it was a mistake, and if not, please let us know who so we don't waste money to buy him/her/them beer at fanfest.)
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#333 - 2014-08-06 22:03:12 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
Witchway wrote:
You're assuming all the large entities haven't already been in your place and lived in the lowend. Hard Knocks wasn't born into C5 space, we started out in lowend just like yourself. We paid our dues and we've earned everything we have, you want large systems to live in then you need to make that happen for yourself. No one is forcing you to live in lowend space.

Nope, noone is forcing me, but also noone is forcing you into a highend. Let´s be honest the difference is capwarfare and larger groups. Which is possible because of the way higher (and arguably less risky but more expensive) income and needed because soloing caps is kinda hard.
But you can´t tell me that atm it is harder to roll with capitals than without. You still get your highsecs/lowsecs/lowends connecting. If it is too risky to use a cap you can still use BS. Ofc then it will take 15 minutes instead of 2 and the risk of getting detected is higher.

The question is a) are you entiteled to easier rolling because you risk more isk and b) if this change, whilest it might be "right" it might be too bad for the overall health of highend wormholespace.

And yes, I have had my share of c5 living, I just didn´t like it so much because lowends have more opportunites for solo-/smallestscale gameplay than highends if the rest of your corp isn´t logged in with you.


It's not harder to roll C5s but there is way more inherent risk with putting 2-3B on the field rather than 150mil

Official Shit Talking Captain, Bastard of Hard Knocks Inc.

Susitna
Negative Density
#334 - 2014-08-06 22:10:30 UTC
Please no to this change. I have seen three main reasons to roll a hole.

1. Current chain has no content for PVE or PVP
2. Hostile chain with forces beyond your ability to fight
3. Close off entry points to make it safer to do sights.

I understand a desire to make number 3 more risky. However, your changes will impact all three. Please look for away to increase farming risk that leaves us a way to find reasonable content. From my experience wormhole corps are hungry for good fights and roll to find them and not avoid them.

Additionally, these changes will make it harder for smaller corps to roll for content. Even large corps will find it difficult to roll during non peak times. If rolling for content is too risky or too painful players will just log and do something else. If this happens too often they may leave wormholes or even the game.

Again please do not do this change. Look for a way to increase risks for farming. Perhaps, make a chance for a new J entry to spawn to the farmed hole whenever a sight is cap escalated. Heck even make it a massive hole.

Admiral Douros
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#335 - 2014-08-06 22:17:34 UTC
Susitna wrote:
I understand a desire to make number 3 more risky. However, your changes will impact all three. Please look for away to increase farming risk that leaves us a way to find reasonable content.



The change to K162 mechanics already makes PVE more risky. In my opinion, they should start with that change, see how it impacts the game, and then brainstorm other changes if necessary. Introducing the K162 change, huge spawn distance after jump, and impossible-to-crash holes all at the same time is too broad a stroke.
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#336 - 2014-08-06 22:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Deeone
Ok I propose this change for all wh. Some kind of gravity distortion prevents the use of a cloaking device within like 20km. Different distance for different classes. All ships spawn at like 5-10 km off the hole. Also maybe with the WH effect re-balance Different WH have different spawning habits. This adds a bit of unknown to the system for explores and something to consider for people that live in WH space. Or If you just want to nerf caps insta closing holes that is easy make them polarize on the first pass...
J0HN SHEPPARD
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#337 - 2014-08-06 22:33:47 UTC
As CEO of a small corp, I must say. This is not a good change!
The Risk of rolling WH now is already pretty high, specially with a small group. Sure small Corp can change tactics from orca to Battleships but that will only make the whole process of rolling, more of a headache and ass clenching process that already is. if small ships land further, I understand but as for big ships that just makes that process way more dangerous than it already is. specially with a small group of player.
EVE is already a numbers game, and I liked WSpace because numbers aren't a necessity as it is in null or low.

I can stomach all the other changes even the one's about giving us another Static in the C4 that will most likely end our seclusion but putting more of our ships in more danger than they already are in, That I cant stomach.
Jamaica Merchant
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#338 - 2014-08-06 22:35:14 UTC
Keep the distances, tweak the position.

Ships, relatively close to each other, jumping simultaneously or within a small interval (2-3 secs)
appear relatively close to each other on the other side.
Simsung Padecain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2014-08-06 22:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Simsung Padecain
Ships aside, getting popped couple km away from a wormhole 100% will get you podded aswell.

Not only you lost your ship (bs, orca, carrier, dread), on top of that you lost your implants (which we cannot change in WHs), and you're in k-space presumably locked out of home system. + updating our clones aswell! :)

This change is not what wormholes need.
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC
#340 - 2014-08-06 22:46:07 UTC
Dama Arishe wrote:
I can get on board with most of the changes, but the mass-based spawn just isn't a good idea. This isn't the kind of attention wspace needs. It doesn't provide any new content and adds frustration to an already annoying process. Cue pos-spinning instead of ninja-rolling for small corps. (At least if you're going to make a change like that, sweeten the pot and give us T3 frigate to jump through those tiny new wormholes!)


I'm a small corp guy: never been involved with more than 30-40 players in a corp, usually a lot fewer, and for easily a year I was The Only Active Player in a C2 corp. I've also 2-manned a C3 (living out of a cloaked Orca), and farmed content from C2 to C5.


You really, really come to appreciate the Orca when it's the difference between logging off to play something else, and shutting the static when it opens to Scarybadman, Inc.

If the new situation is that the half-hour process of solo-closing a wormhole (because of polarisation timers) also includes an extra few minutes of approaching a hole while cloaked (or significantly increase d-scan presence), then, well... I don't see how or why my younger self would have gotten through the early days to actually build a corp that's got the numbers and the ISK to throw into a proper fight.