Wormholes

Are you really prepared to operate multiple POS in a system solely for mining moons without using mass exhaustion to open up logistics routes for the ice you need to fuel those towers and move moongoo to market? :V

(contrivance ahoy)

Rolling our 3bil C2-C5 static will be so much fun.
Up to 6.3 km away from jump range in BS. And every time we connect to a major PvP group we will lose ships or have to log for the night.

Give C2s the income to feed 100 ppl and we will be able to defend our collapsing BS and give a fight.

Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups.

So we do want mass exhaustion?

Terrible idea.

1. Small groups simply won't be able to roll very often.
Orcas dying every week will get old for low-class residents. Even spawning 8k away, this gives plenty Capitals dying is even worse. With these changes you'll want to warp off your capital and back to roll the wormhole. For smaller groups this just won't be worth the risk. If there is anybody ~relevant~ in the chain, this hole just isn't going to close and that whole corp will have to log off for the day.
Even for larger groups, there are times when I am rolling the hole by myself at off-hours to try and get some solo pvp down the chain. I'll have to log off until later because it's not worth the risk of a dread to close bad connections.

2. Rage Rolling
This will over triple the time required to rage roll. capitals have to warp off hole and back to close the connection.

3. Capitals won't be used for skirmishes in other systems
Capitals are often used to balance out numbers in enemy systems (being the only logi allows other pilots to get combat ships), knowing that you can retreat easily if the fight starts going south. Capitals often still die on wormholes like this, but if these changes are implemented nobody will be willing to put that carrier in at 20km away from the fight, knowing they have to win or surrender the capital. On top of this, capitals spawning up to 40km away from each other doesn't allow for refitting, an essential capital ship combat technique.

With these changes, CCP seems like it is promoting blobfests in wormholes like they already have done in nullsec. Large groups already are capable of fielding 50 man t3 gangs, I'd really rather that number go down. These changes only make life easier as a wormblobber, and harder on the small man.

20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).

We've now released the dev blog that goes over the changes we are proposing for Hyperion in detail. Please take a look and then feel free to direct your feedback on wormhole jump spawn distance changes in this thread.

Since this thread is based on incorrect numbers I'm going to lock it and direct people to the new thread now that we have released the blog.