These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#181 - 2014-08-06 17:42:43 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Random thought:

drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right? Blink


I wrote quite a lot more and thought better of it. so I will reply with an emoticon.

I am sure it explains things quite well........


ShockedRoll

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#182 - 2014-08-06 17:42:49 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
Querns wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
Querns wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you.

Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know.


Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try.

So, in order for it to "effect us", we have to be consuming the content on your terms? Sorry, but that is not how it works. Your social norms mean nothing to us.


You don't deploy caps unless you are running sites. These changes don't effect you.

Perhaps the ones you've directly observed have not, but I know many who have. In fact, a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal has extensively ran sites in wormholes, supported by many capital ships.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Budrick3
Moira.
#183 - 2014-08-06 17:44:15 UTC
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(



This, well said. I believe this will do more harm than good.
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#184 - 2014-08-06 17:45:27 UTC
Traiori wrote:
20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).


I am in agreement and I will go so far as to say none of these changes really help with the bigger problem in Wspace. What Wspace really needs is a draw to get more pilots into wormholes to occupy the very EMPTY space because as it stands rage rolling was only used because there were no fights/content to be had. CCP, you are trying to "fix" the mechanics without addressing the function of Wspace. Most corps who lack the ability to field 30+ pilots to Rage-Roll post-Hyperion will stop scout their chain find nothing 9/10 times and then sit back and POS spin. I ask you this: What are you doing to fill the empty W-space?
biz Antollare
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#185 - 2014-08-06 17:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: biz Antollare
So yes you just agreed with me. Goonie caps in wh space come out only for sites. Not PvP .

You certainly don't rage roll.
Snakes-On-A-Plane
#186 - 2014-08-06 17:48:39 UTC
Querns wrote:
Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.

I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.

It's more complex than you are thinking. It can be used to limit contact. Or can be used for the opposite purpose.
WH rolling is sort of like cynoing, in that it expands your mobility and connectivity. And closing them and keeping them closed is sort of like cyno jamming. Except that analogy isn't accurate either, since you don't have to anchor jammers in the teeth of, and under fire from, an invading force.

Now I personally feel that null was better when you had only one or two routes to HS with no cynos or bridges, and that WH's were better before everyone started realizing you could control holes. Better for me, anyway, but I can see arguments for both sides certainly depending on what the player likes to do.

But I think if you are comparing WH's to gates, you aren't understanding the topic. It's not just about security, it's also about access to content, aggression... All of it. It's a difficult concept to explain to someone who does't live by it every day, no offense.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2014-08-06 17:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
I suggest a bell-curve based on mass.

Very small ships (scouts) and very large ships (capitals) would spawn close.
Medium sized ships would spawn farther away (guardians have a 70km range so I'd say max distance would be 35kms)


Scouts no harder to kill: Check
Capitals still somewhat safe to use on wormholes: Check
Hole rolling speed not influenced: Check
Heavy armor fleets don't have to worry about being too spread out: Check
Kite doctrines will have the option to jump into enemy fleets: Check
Hard as **** to code: Pending


I know it's tempting to believe that making capitals spawn farther away from wormholes will create more content. But right now capitals are used as a crutch to overcome larger numbers. With how risky it is to use them now, it's unlikely they will ever be used outside of suicide runs.

♞
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#188 - 2014-08-06 17:49:54 UTC
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso wrote:
I am in agreement and I will go so far as to say none of these changes really help with the bigger problem in Wspace. What Wspace really needs is a draw to get more pilots into wormholes to occupy the very EMPTY space because as it stands rage rolling was only used because there were no fights/content to be had. CCP, you are trying to "fix" the mechanics without addressing the function of Wspace. Most corps who lack the ability to field 30+ pilots to Rage-Roll post-Hyperion will stop scout their chain find nothing 9/10 times and then sit back and POS spin. I ask you this: What are you doing to fill the empty W-space?

Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups. Limiting the ability to do this leaves more wormholes fallow, allowing more groups to move in.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
biz Antollare
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#189 - 2014-08-06 17:52:54 UTC
In the past CCP has said that they like doing small changes so they don't "break" anything. Sorry but your wh community has spoken and we don't want this. We have clearly labeled it as something too big.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#190 - 2014-08-06 17:53:26 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
So yes you just agreed with me. Goonie caps in wh space come out only for sites. Not PvP .

You certainly don't rage roll.

This dovetails into your assertion that the only way a person can earn the "chops" to participate in a discussion about wormholes is to subscribe to your social mores; that the only people who are allowed to speak are those who perform a very limited subset of PvP; that those coming to w-space for PvE or non-capital-related PvP are somehow second class citizens. I refuse to accept this.

Intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is currently a fixture of both PvE and PvP and affects both gameplay facets equally.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#191 - 2014-08-06 17:53:31 UTC
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:
It should be the speed that you enter the wormhole at rather than mass


I like this idea best.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#192 - 2014-08-06 17:58:21 UTC
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
Querns wrote:
Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.

I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.

It's more complex than you are thinking. It can be used to limit contact. Or can be used for the opposite purpose.
WH rolling is sort of like cynoing, in that it expands your mobility and connectivity. And closing them and keeping them closed is sort of like cyno jamming. Except that analogy isn't accurate either, since you don't have to anchor jammers in the teeth of, and under fire from, an invading force.

Now I personally feel that null was better when you had only one or two routes to HS with no cynos or bridges, and that WH's were better before everyone started realizing you could control holes. Better for me, anyway, but I can see arguments for both sides certainly depending on what the player likes to do.

But I think if you are comparing WH's to gates, you aren't understanding the topic. It's not just about security, it's also about access to content, aggression... All of it. It's a difficult concept to explain to someone who does't live by it every day, no offense.

No -- I get it -- intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is also used to find PvP content. However, I'm still adamant in my assertion that it's PvE's use of the mechanic that causes it to also be "necessary" for PvP. Mass exhaustion's ability to allow a wormhole organization to consume resources far afield of their "home" drives out a large number of potential wormhole dwellers by starving them out.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Loris Fritz
Pixel Empire
#193 - 2014-08-06 17:58:28 UTC
I really like this change!

It adds a lit more risk in wormhole space. I think this change will appeal to most PvP focused groups as no one will be able to roll a hole right I front of you without proper scouting and a lot of risk. Hopefully this could encourage more PvP focused groups to move into wormhole space just at the chance to capitalise on that risk.

New tac-tics will be formed and people will one again work to become efficient when rolling to pew or hide with these new procedures. In time we will look back at this and remember howparanoid we were about w-space being ruined, and have a good laugh about it.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#194 - 2014-08-06 17:59:27 UTC
Whilst this sounds better than what's on Sisi.... It's still a bad idea as others have already clearly stated.

Traiori wrote:
EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).

Much better idea than the current plan imo. *like*
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#195 - 2014-08-06 17:59:58 UTC
An overwhelming majority of the time, if my corp rolls a hole, its to find something to do. How, exaclty, does making it more time consuming and risky (without a comparable increase in reward) to find content encourage more content?

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#196 - 2014-08-06 18:00:05 UTC
Querns wrote:
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso wrote:
I am in agreement and I will go so far as to say none of these changes really help with the bigger problem in Wspace. What Wspace really needs is a draw to get more pilots into wormholes to occupy the very EMPTY space because as it stands rage rolling was only used because there were no fights/content to be had. CCP, you are trying to "fix" the mechanics without addressing the function of Wspace. Most corps who lack the ability to field 30+ pilots to Rage-Roll post-Hyperion will stop scout their chain find nothing 9/10 times and then sit back and POS spin. I ask you this: What are you doing to fill the empty W-space?

Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups. Limiting the ability to do this leaves more wormholes fallow, allowing more groups to move in.


I would be curious to see the numbers on how many active holes there are because from what I have seen in my time in Wspace is 70% of the holes are empty or abandoned; that leaves tons of anoms/relic/data/gas sites for all to be had. In the matter of exhausting wormholes. . . it is in fact the opposite; there are so many holes with nothing in them, as I pointed out before, that I could run sites 4-5 jumps down the chain in a T1 BS and hit D every 5 mins and get nothing for hours. <- That is a problem. Earning isk is only a means to A) get more ships to blow up B) get more plex to sub account to blow up ships and I can do that just fine in our hole, so what you said is not relevant.
biz Antollare
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#197 - 2014-08-06 18:00:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
So yes you just agreed with me. Goonie caps in wh space come out only for sites. Not PvP .

You certainly don't rage roll.

This dovetails into your assertion that the only way a person can earn the "chops" to participate in a discussion about wormholes is to subscribe to your social mores; that the only people who are allowed to speak are those who perform a very limited subset of PvP; that those coming to w-space for PvE or non-capital-related PvP are somehow second class citizens. I refuse to accept this.

Intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is currently a fixture of both PvE and PvP and affects both gameplay facets equally.


Its not about "chops"... The big issues regarding this proposal seem to be centered around PvP with caps. Something goons doesn't do. That's all man. Not trying to get in a pissing match here.
Traiori
Going Critical
#198 - 2014-08-06 18:01:45 UTC
In fact, given that wormhole anomalies spawn like all other anomalies, we would have far more to do if every single hole was occupied by someone that cleared all of their sites completely every day.

Sites get locked into abandoned holes until someone runs them and clears them and forces them to respawn somewhere else.
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#199 - 2014-08-06 18:04:10 UTC
Querns wrote:
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso wrote:
I am in agreement and I will go so far as to say none of these changes really help with the bigger problem in Wspace. What Wspace really needs is a draw to get more pilots into wormholes to occupy the very EMPTY space because as it stands rage rolling was only used because there were no fights/content to be had. CCP, you are trying to "fix" the mechanics without addressing the function of Wspace. Most corps who lack the ability to field 30+ pilots to Rage-Roll post-Hyperion will stop scout their chain find nothing 9/10 times and then sit back and POS spin. I ask you this: What are you doing to fill the empty W-space?

Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups. Limiting the ability to do this leaves more wormholes fallow, allowing more groups to move in.


I use to live in a C5 with a C3 static. Did this for over 2 years and while it is true we were 'consuming the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes', doing this to inhabited systems was often times too much hasle unless we were actually looking for pvp. Thus, we were not actually exhausting anything. More so if you realize that those anomslies we despawned imediately spawn in another system of the same class.

Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#200 - 2014-08-06 18:05:50 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
Querns wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
So yes you just agreed with me. Goonie caps in wh space come out only for sites. Not PvP .

You certainly don't rage roll.

This dovetails into your assertion that the only way a person can earn the "chops" to participate in a discussion about wormholes is to subscribe to your social mores; that the only people who are allowed to speak are those who perform a very limited subset of PvP; that those coming to w-space for PvE or non-capital-related PvP are somehow second class citizens. I refuse to accept this.

Intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is currently a fixture of both PvE and PvP and affects both gameplay facets equally.


Its not about "chops"... The big issues regarding this proposal seem to be centered around PvP with caps. Something goons doesn't do. That's all man. Not trying to get in a pissing match here.

There's more to it than that -- it also has to do with the soft barrier to exhausting the mass in the first place, something that directly affects PvE -- the plankton that PvPers require.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.