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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#141 - 2014-08-06 17:08:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie, you wrote in your post that you support emergent gameplay. well, rolling is emergent gameplay and is here to stay. therefore, i propose that making it harder and more annoying is not in your interest. i understand that you want to make shutting oneself in harder, but making the 'door' waste more time and effort is not a good way to do it.

i'm sure this has been proposed over and over already, but why don't we try going the opposite route: create a relatively cheap, quick and reliable way to close a wormhole (such as a deployable or a specialized drone etc.). you could control rage-rolling by progressively increasing the respawn time on statics and you could reduce the safety of 'locked in' people by favoring systems that have been closed off with a higher chance of incoming wandering connections.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Mindo Junde
Somnium Vita
#142 - 2014-08-06 17:09:07 UTC
Arestris wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
Well there you have it CCP. 99% of people who care enough about this change to post here all agree that this change is not in the best interests of its dwellers or in the future of wormholes. I'm pretty sure you got that idea from previous threads about this subject also.

I love all the other changes being proposed.

However this one needs to be scratched.

Sadly I suspect that even with all the numerous complaints and criticism about this change, CCP will do what it wants instead of listening to the people who live there.


Your'e wrong! I think it's more like 99% of all people who read the devblog agree to the change und see absolutly no reason to post here. Such a reason have mostly the people who doesn't like the change.
Thats the mainreason Topics like this looks like nearly everyone doesn't like the change.



jeez mate I want what your smoking :)
CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#143 - 2014-08-06 17:11:18 UTC
na'Vi Ronuken wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release.


Can you tell the dudes sitting in your building that this is a bad change and we don't want it. or better yet -- as him/her to start reading this thread to understand the public sentiment behind this.
Don't worry, everything posted in this thread is being read by the relevant designers (I sit right next to Fozzie so can confirm this first hand!).

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#144 - 2014-08-06 17:11:49 UTC
Everything Traiori already said.

Furthermore:

We have had many excellent fights with other corps where one side gets a pretty sound beating and the survivors return to the POS to lick their wounds. One side or the other then generally rolls away to find more trouble. However, if neither side feels that they can safely roll away, and neither side feels confident in their ability to win the second round of the fight, you end up with both sides staring each other down but not wanting to engage.

It also introduces an option for a type of "fun denial" warfare that nobody is going to like. As the goons and other nullseccers will just camp people into stations, a gigantic group could simply leave open a wormhole because a smaller group doesn't have the means to crash it without losing AT LEAST one very expensive ship. The nullseccers themselves could easily do this. We periodically connect to staging systems and the like, and frequently have a little skirmish, but if we see the 200-man blob coming, we have to slam the door. There's just a limit to how many people we can have in a wormhole. If we can't slam the door, then what? We just have to sit around and wait for the hole to crash? That's not gameplay, or fun, or something that anyone in w-space is looking forward to.

It's not a good idea. I recognize that slamming the door to avoid PvP is an annoyance, but this solution introduces more problems and unfun gameplay than it fixes.
Oreamnos Amric
Confidently Incompetent
#145 - 2014-08-06 17:11:58 UTC
Surely the way to increase the chance of conflict in w-space is to make it easier to roll a wormhole rather than harder. Yes this means farmers can roll away their own static but they have no control over other groups rage rolling a K162 in their direction. Assuming farming groups don't outnumber combat-ready groups then a greater churn of K162s means more possibility of conflict.

Unless CCPs actual, unstated, goal is to reduce rage-rolling for fights...
Dama Arishe
Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong
#146 - 2014-08-06 17:12:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dama Arishe
I can get on board with most of the changes, but the mass-based spawn just isn't a good idea. This isn't the kind of attention wspace needs. It doesn't provide any new content and adds frustration to an already annoying process. Cue pos-spinning instead of ninja-rolling for small corps. (At least if you're going to make a change like that, sweeten the pot and give us T3 frigate to jump through those tiny new wormholes!)
Reve Uhad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2014-08-06 17:12:27 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
na'Vi Ronuken wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release.


Can you tell the dudes sitting in your building that this is a bad change and we don't want it. or better yet -- as him/her to start reading this thread to understand the public sentiment behind this.
Don't worry, everything posted in this thread is being read by the relevant designers (I sit right next to Fozzie so can confirm this first hand!).


Is he sweating/swearing/pacing/facepalming?

Cause if so I demand a picture of this.
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#148 - 2014-08-06 17:13:32 UTC
I do not approve this wh breaking mechanics.

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Laurici
C5 Flight
Fraternity.
#149 - 2014-08-06 17:14:20 UTC
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(


^QFT

An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling.

For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
Mindo Junde
Somnium Vita
#150 - 2014-08-06 17:15:05 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
CCP Fozzie, you wrote in your post that you support emergent gameplay. well, rolling is emergent gameplay and is here to stay. therefore, i propose that making it harder and more annoying is not in your interest. i understand that you want to make shutting oneself in harder, but making the 'door' waste more time and effort is not a good way to do it.

i'm sure this has been proposed over and over already, but why don't we try going the opposite route: create a relatively cheap, quick and reliable way to close a wormhole (such as a deployable or a specialized drone etc.). you could control rage-rolling by progressively increasing the respawn time on statics and you could reduce the safety of 'locked in' people by favoring systems that have been closed off with a higher chance of incoming wandering connections.


I would prefer a 'Mass Bomb' launched from a bomber, like a void bomb, the trick would be to balance it to make it useable and not abuseable. (best of luck)
Xaphanie Xoros
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2014-08-06 17:15:38 UTC
Laurici wrote:
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(


^QFT

An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling.

For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.



This ^^
Adedaughtus
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2014-08-06 17:16:33 UTC
Laurici wrote:
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(


^QFT

An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling.

For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.


This is probably the best idead ive read in this entire thread so far
pewpewforU
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#153 - 2014-08-06 17:17:29 UTC
Laurici wrote:
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(


^QFT

An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling.

For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.


+1 for visibility
biz Antollare
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#154 - 2014-08-06 17:17:29 UTC
I have to agree with what was said earlier...

Scrap this part of the proposed changes and we will be hailing this as the best expansion ever!
Helgur
The State
#155 - 2014-08-06 17:18:31 UTC
Laurici wrote:
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(


^QFT

An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling.

For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.


Not emptyquoting
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#156 - 2014-08-06 17:19:04 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
CCP Fozzie, you wrote in your post that you support emergent gameplay. well, rolling is emergent gameplay and is here to stay. therefore, i propose that making it harder and more annoying is not in your interest. i understand that you want to make shutting oneself in harder, but making the 'door' waste more time and effort is not a good way to do it..


Rage rolling could also be look at as a player deterministic result of inadequate wormhole spawn rates and lack of w-space connectivity. You rage roll to find shallow content on your own terms because the content you are currently finding is not adequate.

EVE perhaps should be a place where deep chains exist through dynamic spawn mechanisms where organic encounters occur from exploration, not static rolling. If your static, increased inbound connections, and the holes connected to you offer a depth of connections, would that not be a better alternative and more engaging play for players than smashing ships through a wormhole repeatedly?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#157 - 2014-08-06 17:20:31 UTC
Some of you have cottoned onto the "emergent gameplay" angle. Emergent gameplay, while extremely cool, is also not sacrosanct. CCP is under no obligation to maintain emergent gameplay.

For examples of this, see the "Faction Five" Forex scheme -- while clearly emergent gameplay, it was also extremely harmful for the game and needed to be excised.

I dare suggest that intentionally exhausting wormholes to increase the amount of territory available for farming and raiding may fall into a similar category, that it is allowing wormhole space to support increasingly large, but increasingly fewer groups, raising the barrier of entry into w-space in the process.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Reve Uhad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2014-08-06 17:20:55 UTC
Let us not forget, the events of Clarion Call 3 most likely would not have occurred with this mechanic in place.
Sjaandi HyShan
Overheated Industries
#159 - 2014-08-06 17:22:05 UTC
Why not change it from spawn distance to spawn speed, similar to station undocks? This would allow smart players to use webs+sensor boosters or the lack of them to control engagement range.

Make it so that the ships will naturally slow down (and be able to stop) to the ranges desired, while allowing coordinated players to use fitting choices to have the ability to adjust the range the ship actually reaches.

This allows the following gameplay:

  1. Webs and (remote) sensor boosters can be combined to allow small ships to slow big ones down, or big ships to lock each other and slow themselves down. This allows brawling/rep fleets to stay in range, at the cost in needing to fit webs/sensor boosters or field additional ships with these fitted.
  2. Sniper fleets can be more effectively countered by instead using the speed boost to close to a more suitable engagement range (use a MWD or afterburner as soon as spawned)


On a side note, I think that the suggestion people are giving of small ships should appear farther from the hole is bad because it makes Covert Ops ships invulnerable, as they will be spawned far enough away to immediately cloak and avoid bubbles. This combined with the new WH-WH connections would allow Covert Ops ships to effectively be immune to camps of any kind.
Cedeves XVII
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2014-08-06 17:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cedeves XVII
This change is going to have far ranging damages to wormholers. On one hand they talk about making it harder to completly close off your home, but then they make it harder for those searching for fights to find them by rage rolling, nullifying much of the decreased safety.

I am far more worried about the changes to use of Caps under threat.
- Deploying even a single triage carrier will be a full commitle without the ability to evac the capital unless you win the fight.
- No longer will it be possible to use carriers to refit other caps when attacking, however defenders, even outside of their home, but just taking up the defensive possition having the other side jump into them will be able to refit caps.

Further people will no longer be able to combat roll their holl in many situations, removing a hugh amount of tactics further increasign the value of more numbers. In addition to making it harder to cut an enemy fleet in half you can't roll away from a fight you dont want to take, you may think this is good people will take more fights, but instead people will just POS up and go play other games.

TL;DR: RIP offensive use of caps, and thanks CCP i have been meaning to catch up on other games while blue balling my enemies.