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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#101 - 2014-08-06 16:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shilalasar
Rroff wrote:
xpaulx wrote:
Time to shoot the monument


There is a monument in wormhole space?


It´s the shattered planet in that one C3, pretty sure someone has the j-sig.

Edit: Herpderp, missread the baserange part.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#102 - 2014-08-06 16:23:21 UTC
What if they kept the distance changes, but changed the spawn mechanics when you land, such that you appeared somewhere in a 60 degree cone that was the opposite polar direction you had when you entered the wormhole? Even better, maybe you should have an intial velocity that you had when you started the jump?

Make it so if you jump through at < 20% of your ship's maximum unboosted speed, you land cloaked and unmoving.

If you jump through in excess of 20% of your ship's maximum unboosted speed, you land with a ~5s cloak with an initial velocity in the same direction you were previously heading, somewhere in the cone described above.


That'd allow fleets to stay together, and allow for some really cool mechanics for fleet positioning through a wh.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#103 - 2014-08-06 16:23:30 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
There are many good arguments why this change is good and why this change is bad.

I do like the change however as someone pointed out previously it will be harder for higher class people to bring in carriers + dreads for a fight as they will not be able to refit. If there would be a possibility for all the ships to spawn in same random direction for their designated ranges and dread + carrier ranges would be the same I would be happy.

Plus make it so that if you jump into kspace you are not dragged away from the wh. A lot of time wspace people will fight on the wormhole with null sec blob and the reason we can do that is that we can just jump back to wh.

No matter how the change ends up being in the end it will shake up wspace quite a bit.

super graphic: http://i.imgur.com/jYofIa7.png


Perhaps you should have considered both sides when you proposed it. From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4765901#post4765901:

Chitsa Jason wrote:

18. Make it so that the higher of the ship mass the further it spawns from the wormhole by jumping through. Would increase the ability to catch rolling ships, would make rage rolling slower.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#104 - 2014-08-06 16:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Joran Jackson
Saraki Ishikela wrote:
Shouldn't the real problem here be that groups of players have to "rage roll" wormholes in the first place to look for targets? It seems like CCP is trying to force player interaction on a process that most people use to try and facilitate player interaction. The problem to me seems to be that ragerolling is necessary, not that players have found the optimimum way of doing it.

Why not create a weapon system, bomb, mobile structure etc that will instead collapse the worm hole after a set amount of time? It can go a number of ways, players either shoot at the wormhole with a specialized weapon system to collapse it, so more players equals faster collapse, you set a mobile structure and after x amount of time the wormhole collapse around it, have it be a like a graviton mass accelerator and causes gravity spike that collapses the hole or what not.

The trick is whenever this process is initiated on one side, alert the other side it's going on. This will generate an opportunity for another group to try and disrupt and engage.

I just came up with this in 2 seconds, i'm sure it can be much more refined, but it seems silly to treat a symptom when the problem is with ragerolling itself.


This idea is amazing. In fact, let's just give the wormholes hitpoints, you don't need to worry about making a new type of weapon. Should probably make sure it has millions of hitpoints to make it difficult enough.

You know, I changed my mind. I like the anchoring of structures instead. Let's call it a WCU. A Wormhole Claim Unit. Once you anchor it you collapse the wormhole you now own.

I'm actually surprised it only took you 2 seconds to come up with that. I think it would take normal people around six months.
Cay Deschain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2014-08-06 16:23:37 UTC
If CCP really wants to do make this change (and I still don't see a reason for it), why not just invert the distances (i.e. make larger masses spawn closer and smaller masses spawn farther out)? This solves the cap/orca ragerolling problem. Yes, it will keep being able to keep scouts out harder and break up T3s all landing at the same distance, but these are ships that can burn back quickly.
blackish person
The Vendunari
End of Life
#106 - 2014-08-06 16:25:24 UTC
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
ShadowfireWraith
The Thirteen Provinces
#107 - 2014-08-06 16:25:25 UTC
I like all of the ideas of this patch EXCEPT the spawn distance from the wormhole.
You guys are saying that you want all sides of eve open to player interaction, but many groups are unable to leave, unable to operate, or unable to do well....anything if they cannot close that incoming wormhole. There already is a fight in order to close a wormhole, if the attacker wants to keep it from closing all it takes is a HIC on the other side to trap people that land on the hole or keep people from landing at 0 on the hole, and then the enemy fleet can kill the entire wormhole closing force.
Additionally, small groups need a way to shield themselves from outside interaction. Against small ship wormholes, you know they cannot bring in t3's which means you will gladly fight the incoming force. It will be fun pvp and very interesting. When the enemy comes from a normal wormhole though, you will see small groups shutting down if they cannot roll a hole without support. Instead of needing to pitch ships from a wormhole, the larger groups should know that they simply need to do what? Risk their own ass by going INTO the target wormhole instead of sitting safe and sound on their side of it waiting for hole rollers to come. This is frequently seen already, stop trying to add more 'content' in a way that will only ruin things for small groups. Small groups need to be able to scout the wormhole, safely roll it, and continue on with THEIR content, instead of just being smaller fish in everyone else's content. Support fleets in wormholes are not common to be had, you do not frequently see 20+ person fleets just hanging around with nothing to do or supporting wormhole rolls, because then it would get too crowded during peak times with nobody having any content to do besides kill other players.
Just drop the mass pitching you far from a wormhole and we have the best wormhole patch we've ever seen, and buff the loot in c2 wormholes to not put them so far from C3 and C3+ wormholes and we will love you. The small ship wormhole is enough, it levels the field between large groups and small groups and causes more fights, which we want to see, instead of more turtling whether it be the enemy OR ourselves hiding in fright due to not being able to close our wormhole off. The larger groups need to watch the hole if they want to keep it alive, not just magically expect the fear of their numbers will let them be lazy and not have to force the other group not to roll the wormhole. PVP groups can always roll a wormhole to get more content, this change means that small groups CANNOT roll a wormhole to even have the slightest hope of even a little pitiful bit of something to do besides quit and come back later hoping the larger group rolled the wh for them.
Equalize the field, not balance it further only towards large groups.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#108 - 2014-08-06 16:26:30 UTC
Traiori wrote:
20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).

Not empty quoting because I still think this captures the most salient points/issues with this proposal.

You will be stranding 3+b ISK ships well outside of their operational envelope (possibly outside of rep/capxfer range and definitely outside of refit range). This will result in fewer caps being used in wh PvP and that is bad in my opinion. People won't suicide multiple billions of isk 'just cuz'. We aren't stupid and/or moongoo+renter srp rich.

I'm right behind you
Kim Briggs
Aurora Armaments
#109 - 2014-08-06 16:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kim Briggs
I realy like the change, that higher mass ships spawn further away from the wh.

In the current state it is nearly impossible to get a fight with wh residence, if they are active and don't want to fight.
I face this situation on a nearly daily base, that i scan a wh, scout it, form a fleet, suddenly caps appear on my side and 5 sec later the wh is gone.
That is a risk free method to avoid any unwanted contact and should be gone



Good change CCP!
Shock 2u
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#110 - 2014-08-06 16:30:07 UTC
I do not support these changes.

I have lived in WH space since joining EvE and it is by far the best content in this game. These changes will not encourage more PvP they will just allow the large WH corps to keep their connections open longer meaning the smaller corps will turtle and log. Eventually they will move out of WH space and only the large groups will remain.

Some of these changes will ruin W space. We already get random WH opening and to increase that "significantly" and make some of them unable to be closed is insane.

I can only guess CCP wants people out of WH space to stop isk farming to plex. I pay for he game so that's not such a big deal for me but I like to have isk for shinny ships.

We will have to make a decision on if this is what WH space should be, my guess is the Null Sec peeps in CCP want all space to be Null like, why not add a local while you are at it?
ShadowfireWraith
The Thirteen Provinces
#111 - 2014-08-06 16:30:18 UTC
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(



This post is the most perfect summation of what we are trying to say, said by a very well respected and large group of wormholes with lots of experience. Please please please for the love of god listen!
Reve Uhad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2014-08-06 16:31:48 UTC
Shock 2u wrote:


I can only guess CCP wants people out of WH space to stop isk farming to plex. I pay for he game so that's not such a big deal for me but I like to have isk for shinny ships.



CCP still gets paid when people plex. The plex has to be bought by someone. This is never a valid accusation.
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#113 - 2014-08-06 16:36:00 UTC
Kim Briggs wrote:
I realy like the change, that higher mass ships spawn further away from the wh.

In the current state it is nearly impossible to get a fight with wh residence, if they are active and don't want to fight.
I face this situation on a nearly daily base, that i scan a wh, scout it, form a fleet, suddenly caps appear on my side and 5 sec later the wh is gone.
That is a risk free method to avoid any unwanted contact and should be gone



Good change CCP!


Yeah, good point. You know, I hate people avoiding unwanted contact, too. Completely risk free.

I'll tell you what, let's keep this and add in these things called wormhole shipyards. You could basically put yourself inside them whenever you felt like. It would make it easy for people to keep their possessions, but most importantly it would allow people to reship for PvP. And then you could combine it with something like an alert that went off whenever you were in danger. That way whenever someone came by, you could always ship up and bring the fight!!

Dear CCP...please institute some type of intelligence verification for this forum.
Shock 2u
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#114 - 2014-08-06 16:37:34 UTC
Reve Uhad wrote:
Shock 2u wrote:


I can only guess CCP wants people out of WH space to stop isk farming to plex. I pay for he game so that's not such a big deal for me but I like to have isk for shinny ships.



CCP still gets paid when people plex. The plex has to be bought by someone. This is never a valid accusation.



You assume people will continue to play if they can not farm for isk. You are wrong.
Reve Uhad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2014-08-06 16:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Reve Uhad
Shock 2u wrote:
Reve Uhad wrote:
Shock 2u wrote:


I can only guess CCP wants people out of WH space to stop isk farming to plex. I pay for he game so that's not such a big deal for me but I like to have isk for shinny ships.



CCP still gets paid when people plex. The plex has to be bought by someone. This is never a valid accusation.



You assume people will continue to play if they can not farm for isk. You are wrong.


I'm definitely not suggesting that. I'm just saying that the idea that CCP hates people who plex [because it means they don't get paid] is invalid.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2014-08-06 16:41:51 UTC
I would suggest making the distances even shorter, like 6-8km for caps. That way it will be a slowboatable/bumpable distance that will not slow us down as much as bouncing when rolling, but at the same time if someone decloaks and webs you on grid you are screwed anyway.

SSC Brokering Service
Bob Artis
Rolled Out
#117 - 2014-08-06 16:42:11 UTC
I said it before and I'll say it again. The only way this feature will ever work is if you reverse the direction. Heavier ships spawn close while lighter ships spawn further away.

I understand that it might be a little too safe to use Capital ships to roll right now, but pushing it so far in the other direction will just stop people from using them for anything other then home defense.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#118 - 2014-08-06 16:43:50 UTC
Reve Uhad wrote:

I'm definitely not suggesting that. I'm just saying that the idea that CCP hates people who plex [because it means they don't get paid] is invalid.

There are still people in TYOOL 2014 who believe that an account being activated by PLEX somehow denies them income?

Hint: people who maintain their accounts using PLEX are actually causing CCP to profit MORE than someone who pays monthly; PLEX cost $20, and a monthly subscription costs $15/mo.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Mindo Junde
Somnium Vita
#119 - 2014-08-06 16:44:55 UTC
Quincy Thibaud wrote:
Nox Arnoux wrote:
A key element of overcoming someone else's home system advantage is to be able to reliably refit the capitals we commit (i.e. dreads next to carriers). When capitals have the potential of spawning >30 km from each other, that advantage is nullified. To add insult to injury, the home defenders can still decide where their capitals land, while the attackers are at the mercy of the RNG Gods.

You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided?


The defender in a wormhole should have all of the advantages as stated above. This makes attacking even more risky and gives the defender even more advantages. It will lead to more LOL-RNG kills of people trying to roll holes, but it's not going to generate large scale fights.

Rolling holes for the most part in C6/C5 space is about finding fights and possibly ganks. You are again making this harder to do. Would Rooks And Kings have bothered trying to roll for AHARM in Clarion Call 3 if it was going to take them 10 times as long?

Lets say there was no risk, just the wasted time in rolling holes in motoring back to the hole is a red flag. Right now null sec is stuck in stagnation because epic structure grinding is totally boring. Now you want to throw a similar mechanic in wormhole space - wasting more and more game time.

How about for a change CCP carefully think this change through? CCP, your thinking is flawed. If the idea is to induce more risk to a certain behavior you will get what Eve players will always do, make that risk/reward calculation. The result of that calculation will precipitate a decision that it is less worth the risk.

The other changes on cursory review seem fine, this one is flawed.




This a thousand times THIS....
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#120 - 2014-08-06 16:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
This change is terrible. The extra effort to rage-roll will reduce connectivity (which is hugely inconsistent with your other changes for this release which are all about increasing connectivity), and the drastically increased dangers committing caps will mean nobody will bother - both of these remove good content.

Just drop the change already, nobody wants it.