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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#41 - 2014-08-06 16:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Saisin wrote:
Totally like the idea, good job!

I disagree with players stating to do something about clone jumping in WH.. Making it easier to bring high value implants in WH simply facilitates settling WHs.
Now having a medical bay to respawn in a WH (after being podded) is something I can get along with as a middle ground, as long it belongs within a manned ship and not a structure (a T2 orca for example...)


The ONLY reason I and many other wormholers Pod people in wormholes is to ensure they cannot reship immediately, killboards, tears and other "stuff" is in the big scheme of things meaningless. Jumping and respawning in wormholes is a really really bad idea that completely changes how life takes place here, swapping clones should be the absolute limit, and is really needed as a feature.

And in case you did not read the dev blog Fozzie SPECIFICALLY said that preventing settling in wormholes was NOT a goal.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
#42 - 2014-08-06 16:06:08 UTC
Stacy Lone wrote:
I'm not really sure that this change is healthy for the game over all.

Right now, WH space is the only space were new players can actually life in and have some kind of their "own" system. I came to eve early this year, after having played some hours a year before. But this time I stuck with it.

As a new player, you quickly realize that you have not many options when you want to create your own space empire or jus get your own home. You can either join a big coalition and be meaningless with your subpar skills. HERO didn't exist back then, so getting your own piece of the universe (getting sov) simply wasn't an option, even if you started with some friends. And renting isn't an option, either. New players simply can not afford rent. We don#t have carriers to rat or else. So, my friends and I (5 players using more then 10 accounts by now) decided to give W-space a try.

We are now happily living an a C2 with static high sec and C3. By now, most of us fly their t3s very well and we use our C3 static regularly to kill sleepers. We even used our last c4 connection to go into the c4 and killed sleepers there. That went smoooth, and now we are giving it a thought to try to move into a c4 with static c4. We like that c4s are more quiet then other w-space systems.

Beign new players means we don't have much money. We already lost some t3s to roams due to inexperience and failure in getting the proper intel, but we get by.

If you can not longer close your home system, then w-space will be dead for newbies. And with it EVE, excpet for high sec. Sure, you can go roaming in low sec, but you can not have a "home" there. And you will probably need to make money in high sec. Getting into null and actually occupying some space is already impossible, so w-space is the last space were even noobs can plant a flag (or a pos ar two) and have their very own space home.

But if you can not close your home anymore, then you can not do mining anymore, which is an important base income. And if you can not find wormhole connections to wormholes that have only 1 or two additional connections so that you can watch (and maybe bubble) them, then we can not go kill sleepers anymore. Because well fit destroyer/frigate gang can still hurt inexperienced players in t3s with relatively small ISK risk.


What problem does this change try to solve anyways? Wspace is already full of very healthy fights, there's no need to make it even more uncontrollable. At last not in c1-c4. Maybe c5/c6 needs to be more spiced in order to kill capital escalation fleets easier, but there is certainly no need for frigate pvp in wspace in general.


I'm very concerned that some of these changes will hurt new, low-sp player with relatively small ISK very badly, while providing no real content to the already estabished, powerful wspace residents. I can't imagine the established, rich alliances getting fun out of trashing frigs.


Well said. This was how our wormhole efforts got started as well. When you have a smaller number of people trying to live in a lower-class wormhole, even a small ship just passing through is a significant threat. Not because it's going to gank you (usually), but because it'll open up your statics, which in turn means a constant stream of people poking their nose in to see where that wormhole goes to. In our C2, we actually spent more time contending with roams coming in our hi-sec static and then sitting on the wormhole and ducking back out whenever they were losing, than we did our w-space static. On the other hand, when we did get a fight on the w-space static, usually it was a lot more fun, because the hostile fleet was down for a real fight and not just interested in killing whatever they could get with no risk.

I think it's important to remember that there are a lot of small corps in wormholes that may only be able to get 4-5 people online at the same time. These folks are not just doing PvP and killing sleepers, but they're making a living out of C1-C3s. These new small/unkillable holes will really hurt the ability for those corps to operate.
Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
#43 - 2014-08-06 16:14:21 UTC
My only constructive criticism and 1st and only thought is..


WEeeeeeeEEeeeee !

+1 Lets do this!

Read more of my ramblings on my blog www.invadingyourhole.blogspot.com
Adarnof
Kingsparrow Wormhole Division
Birds of Prey.
#44 - 2014-08-06 16:17:53 UTC
I would totally take advantage of these small holes if I wasn't stuck in a pod worth a few hundred (or thousand pleb-fit) frigates. While an interesting idea for the wandering explorer, I can't see upper-class groups taking advantage of them.

But I will enjoy more, "normal" wandering connections.
Vishtar
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2014-08-06 16:18:43 UTC
The way I see this change is not that it's to allow fleets of frigs into wormhole space.. but it's to open up wormholes with entrances that CANT be closed out.. so that it's much more likely that explorers will come in and open your static exit increasing wormhole openness hugely.

Depending on how frequent these small wormholes will be they could have a huge impact on the map of wormhole space and how many paths/k162's you find.

Also it will impact small corps/solo players that cant police the holes and PVE at the same time.
Marven Briggs
Human Sacrifice for Dummies
#46 - 2014-08-06 16:18:53 UTC
Stacy Lone wrote:
I'm very concerned that some of these changes will hurt new, low-sp player with relatively small ISK very badly, while providing no real content to the already estabished, powerful wspace residents.


I agree. Especially the "small wormholes"-part of the suggested changes should be introduced very carefully and in small numbers to estimate its effects.

It's nice to see that wormhole space in the game gets a bit of attention from a design perspective, but CCP should not forget that a lot of people in wormhole-space live there to AVOID major attention. Incoming higher class wormholes already pose a threat to lower class inhabitants as they are. This is not a statement against PvP, but for small scale with small numbers of players. The suggested "un-rollable" wormhole mechanics undermine wormhole-Pvp-mechanics in this point by a gread deal and may bring "superior numbers tactics" to wormholes as they are common in k-space now.

I think a major strength of wormhole space is the fact that it is difficult to access it from k-space. Introducing more wormholes weakens its uniqueness as some form of solitude from k-space and its politics. The last thing we want to see from this point of view is some sort of "second null-sec". It may be better to add content beyond C6, thus motivate players to "move up" , and to avoid potentially fatal changes at the space we got used to.
Mindo Junde
Somnium Vita
#47 - 2014-08-06 16:18:55 UTC
Verran Skarne wrote:


I think it's important to remember that there are a lot of small corps in wormholes that may only be able to get 4-5 people online at the same time. These folks are not just doing PvP and killing sleepers, but they're making a living out of C1-C3s. These new small/unkillable holes will really hurt the ability for those corps to operate.


Hate to say this but frankly i don't think CCP give a shite about small corps, wh's or anywhere else.

For the record, small corp describes me too.
Snakes-On-A-Plane
#48 - 2014-08-06 16:20:06 UTC
I feel like I should point out that a mobile depot allows access to infinitely sized Hictor combat fleets. 2000 Phobos (Phobi?) could come through a hole and refit to 100% guns. A much more powerful force than frigates alone.

I'm not sure if that's a problem, since it would take time to move that way and it would be a slow force. It'd also have a weak point in that any logi support would be frigates only. But I thought it might be worth mentioning.
Mindo Junde
Somnium Vita
#49 - 2014-08-06 16:20:40 UTC
Mindo Junde wrote:
Verran Skarne wrote:


I think it's important to remember that there are a lot of small corps in wormholes that may only be able to get 4-5 people online at the same time. These folks are not just doing PvP and killing sleepers, but they're making a living out of C1-C3s. These new small/unkillable holes will really hurt the ability for those corps to operate.


Hate to say this but frankly i don't think CCP give a shite about small corps, wh's or anywhere else.

For the record, small corp describes me too.


And putting my Dinsdale :tinfoil: on. Isn't this just another pandering to Goons? ;)
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-08-06 16:21:15 UTC
This is quite awesome, +10 internetz for you, make them common please.

SSC Brokering Service
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#51 - 2014-08-06 16:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
I feel like I should point out that a mobile depot allows access to infinitely sized Hictor combat fleets. 2000 Phobos (Phobi?) could come through a hole and refit to 100% guns. A much more powerful force than frigates alone.

I'm not sure if that's a problem, since it would take time to move that way and it would be a slow force. It'd also have a weak point in that any logi support would be frigates only. But I thought it might be worth mentioning.


They do need to be looked at.

I get why you would want one (or 10) of them.

But I haven't seen massive gangs of Heavy Interdictors set for combat pew (meta does not dictate for them). There DPS output is pretty low.

....... I'm just going to have to shrug and say... eh.

Yaay!!!!
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-08-06 16:31:26 UTC
Yeah the more i think about this addition the less i like it. I hate how popular interceptors have become in k-space due to their op mechanics, and the last thing i want to see is wormhole space full of ceptors...

I think this wormhole would be better suited to a new class of wormhole system. A system that has no moons to anchor a POS and profitable PVE that can be ran by a strong frigate fleet.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#53 - 2014-08-06 16:38:43 UTC
Random WH's - very good.



Small WH's - If it's an entrance to a Wolf-Rayet I can see this being briefly hilarious - entertaining zerg rush into roflpwn space. That'll last about...an hour or so maybe then idk, after that it feels like this is a waste of time to be honest. What's the aim? Encourage people into small ships in WH space? Why? It's not like we can't afford to risk shinier ships than frigates, you're not putting it into k-space so you're not enticing newbies in, so what is it you're actually trying to do here?
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#54 - 2014-08-06 16:40:08 UTC
Mindo Junde wrote:
Mindo Junde wrote:
Verran Skarne wrote:


I think it's important to remember that there are a lot of small corps in wormholes that may only be able to get 4-5 people online at the same time. These folks are not just doing PvP and killing sleepers, but they're making a living out of C1-C3s. These new small/unkillable holes will really hurt the ability for those corps to operate.


Hate to say this but frankly i don't think CCP give a shite about small corps, wh's or anywhere else.

For the record, small corp describes me too.


And putting my Dinsdale :tinfoil: on. Isn't this just another pandering to Goons? ;)

I don't know whether it's the WH life making me paranoid or the Goons cheering the changes that make me agree with you.
Cay Deschain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-08-06 16:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cay Deschain
CCP Fozzie wrote:
They will also enjoy a very high stable mass and will be the first wormhole connections in EVE to regenerate mass over time. This means that collapsing these wormholes will be nearly impossible, and they will virtually always last to the end of their 16 hour lifespan.


What really is the point of having regenerating mass wormholes? Just so things "stay open?"
I would say a kind of established "wormhole meta" that persists across many sci-fi platforms (including EVE) is "you never know when a wormhole will close." The big event in the lore with the EVE Gate was that it closed suddenly and without warning.
If CCP wants to change things up with this type of wormhole, just have it spawn with a variable mass limit and (if desired) variable time limit. Keep all the mass and time warnings of course, just scale the time one appropriately (instead of EOL being 4 hours, have it be X% of the remaining time). If a local wants to collapse it, they can just take the time (and risk) of rolling it with destroyers.

This way it will be a lot more dynamic. If people want to roll the dice and go for it they can, instead of being "Hey look one of our targets has one of those uncollapsable holes and it's not EOL, so take your time so we can seed all of our scouts in."
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#56 - 2014-08-06 16:51:38 UTC
Random wormholes good.

Frigate wormholes...ehh. I don't see myself or my corp making much use of them. The pod value concern is absolutely legitimate, and the concerns about driving newer players out are not entirely baseless, though I think not a complete deal-breaker (you can always put a picket on the hole, kids). So...meh?
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#57 - 2014-08-06 16:53:51 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Yeah the more i think about this addition the less i like it. I hate how popular interceptors have become in k-space due to their op mechanics, and the last thing i want to see is wormhole space full of ceptors...

I think this wormhole would be better suited to a new class of wormhole system. A system that has no moons to anchor a POS and profitable PVE that can be ran by a strong frigate fleet.


I get the concern Rek. If I had a concern, it wouldn't be interceptor gangs, it would be bomber gangs.

I'm still not adverse to this change. I still see the potential (and I'm less worried about K-space invading with interceptors because there are easier fights to find without having to map out a giant wormhole chain just to find the pew). We are willing to do it (because that is what we do).

Yaay!!!!
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#58 - 2014-08-06 16:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Cay Deschain wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
They will also enjoy a very high stable mass and will be the first wormhole connections in EVE to regenerate mass over time. This means that collapsing these wormholes will be nearly impossible, and they will virtually always last to the end of their 16 hour lifespan.


What really is the point of having regenerating mass wormholes? Just so things "stay open?"
I would say a kind of established "wormhole meta" that persists across many sci-fi platforms (including EVE) is "you never know when a wormhole will close." The big event in the lore with the EVE Gate was that it closed suddenly and without warning.
If CCP wants to change things up with this type of wormhole, just have it spawn with a variable mass limit and (if desired) variable time limit. Keep all the mass and time warnings of course, just scale the time one appropriately (instead of EOL being 4 hours, have it be X% of the remaining time). If a local wants to collapse it, they can just take the time (and risk) of rolling it with destroyers.

This way it will be a lot more dynamic. If people want to roll the dice and go for it they can, instead of being "Hey look one of our targets has one of those uncollapsable holes and it's not EOL, so take your time so we can seed all of our scouts in."


I looked at it from the frigate pilots side and I see why they did this.

They want to make frigate pilots less afraid of getting locked into or out of the wormhole. They want to make Assault Frigate Pilots, interceptor pilots, logistic pilots Ewar Frigate Pilots a little more comfortable with coming into a wormhole without fear that it'll get immediately collapsed behind them. They also don't want the opposing corp to just either combat roll it locking the frigate gang out, or into their hole.

I get it. At the moment I'm ok with it.

Would people dogpile into the system with a gang of 200. Who the heck knows.

Yaay!!!!
Admiral Douros
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-08-06 17:12:07 UTC
This is an interesting idea, but I don't like the fact that it's basically impossible to crash. Forcing PVEers to leave a hole open is going to result in them logging off for the day, which will create less PVP content, not more. Maybe remove the mass regeneration and reduce the total stable mass. This way, a large frigate+destroyer blob can jump in and do some PVP, but the hole will crash eventually.

I also agree that wormhole dwellers who mostly PVE will be less inclined to fight in small ships because of their expensive clones. Give us the ability to swap clones at the POS (or just swap implant sets if that's easier to code) and you'll probably see a lot more skirmishes in smaller ships, which seems to be the intent here.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#60 - 2014-08-06 17:12:19 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Cay Deschain wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
They will also enjoy a very high stable mass and will be the first wormhole connections in EVE to regenerate mass over time. This means that collapsing these wormholes will be nearly impossible, and they will virtually always last to the end of their 16 hour lifespan.


What really is the point of having regenerating mass wormholes? Just so things "stay open?"
I would say a kind of established "wormhole meta" that persists across many sci-fi platforms (including EVE) is "you never know when a wormhole will close." The big event in the lore with the EVE Gate was that it closed suddenly and without warning.
If CCP wants to change things up with this type of wormhole, just have it spawn with a variable mass limit and (if desired) variable time limit. Keep all the mass and time warnings of course, just scale the time one appropriately (instead of EOL being 4 hours, have it be X% of the remaining time). If a local wants to collapse it, they can just take the time (and risk) of rolling it with destroyers.

This way it will be a lot more dynamic. If people want to roll the dice and go for it they can, instead of being "Hey look one of our targets has one of those uncollapsable holes and it's not EOL, so take your time so we can seed all of our scouts in."


I looked at it from the frigate pilots side and I see why they did this.

They want to make frigate pilots less afraid of getting locked into or out of the wormhole. They want to make Assault Frigate Pilots, interceptor pilots, logistic pilots Ewar Frigate Pilots a little more comfortable with coming into a wormhole without fear that it'll get immediately collapsed behind them. They also don't want the opposing corp to just either combat roll it locking the frigate gang out, or into their hole.

I get it. At the moment I'm ok with it.

Would people dogpile into the system with a gang of 200. Who the heck knows.

They wouldn't have to worry about some one closing the hole so I don't really see why they wouldn't