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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

First post
Author
Dama Arishe
Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong
#61 - 2014-08-06 17:18:58 UTC
Can we have T3 frigs now? :)
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#62 - 2014-08-06 17:22:16 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Cay Deschain wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
They will also enjoy a very high stable mass and will be the first wormhole connections in EVE to regenerate mass over time. This means that collapsing these wormholes will be nearly impossible, and they will virtually always last to the end of their 16 hour lifespan.


What really is the point of having regenerating mass wormholes? Just so things "stay open?"
I would say a kind of established "wormhole meta" that persists across many sci-fi platforms (including EVE) is "you never know when a wormhole will close." The big event in the lore with the EVE Gate was that it closed suddenly and without warning.
If CCP wants to change things up with this type of wormhole, just have it spawn with a variable mass limit and (if desired) variable time limit. Keep all the mass and time warnings of course, just scale the time one appropriately (instead of EOL being 4 hours, have it be X% of the remaining time). If a local wants to collapse it, they can just take the time (and risk) of rolling it with destroyers.

This way it will be a lot more dynamic. If people want to roll the dice and go for it they can, instead of being "Hey look one of our targets has one of those uncollapsable holes and it's not EOL, so take your time so we can seed all of our scouts in."


I looked at it from the frigate pilots side and I see why they did this.

They want to make frigate pilots less afraid of getting locked into or out of the wormhole. They want to make Assault Frigate Pilots, interceptor pilots, logistic pilots Ewar Frigate Pilots a little more comfortable with coming into a wormhole without fear that it'll get immediately collapsed behind them. They also don't want the opposing corp to just either combat roll it locking the frigate gang out, or into their hole.

I get it. At the moment I'm ok with it.

Would people dogpile into the system with a gang of 200. Who the heck knows.

They wouldn't have to worry about some one closing the hole so I don't really see why they wouldn't


And that would get them where....

There's a point where the excess is detrimental to your pvp. Even with the infinite hole , it doesn't mean you'll have a row of 20 of them to run your gang of 200 through. You'll hit eol holes, massed holes, guys with smartbombs on the otherside, etc. would an interceptor gang decide to run around in your hole for days at a time waiting for you?

I doubt it. There is more pew to be had.

Yaay!!!!

Moo Moocow
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#63 - 2014-08-06 17:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Moo Moocow
Dama Arishe wrote:
Can we have T3 frigs now? :)


Loosing skills on a minutely basis :P

Two things to consider:

If WH's are spawning only when you jump through them,
we will get less k162's from null sec so that limits were we get most of out pvp.



Secondly,

Its probably been said before,
When I was in a small corp we used to like the fact we could control our little corner of eve without having to deal with politics.
We liked we could close ourselves off and do what we wanted. It didn't always stay like that very long but the corp enjoyed it.

I'll see how the frig wh's go, SB gangs could be fun again.
Kireitsugu Secheh
Les chips electriques
#64 - 2014-08-06 17:41:48 UTC
I'm a little sad about this because this will create a hole, in which you dont fear to get lost because you can back in anytime, not fearing the hole to disapear.

In a way, this will be like a small gate in nullsec systems. A gate that only time can destroy.

I would gladly accept the fact that while the hole "regenerates" its mass, each time it does so, it loose life time.
Lets say: it has 16 hours at first.
Ex: Each frigate jump will deduce 15 min of life time in it.
Here will be the way:
You want to exploit your small wh as a siege thing ? Gotta limit the number of ships using the hole by the strict minimum.
Wanna skirmish ? Okay, use pleinty of ships in it, but each member will reduce the fun time you'll have..


Thanks.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#65 - 2014-08-06 17:50:56 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:


There will always be a chance to catch a carrier or dread in a sleeper site or rolling a hole. The "unrollable" holes would be pretty easy to navigate once you've found a route.
Rook Mallard
Aperture Harmonics
#66 - 2014-08-06 17:51:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We believe that these new random wormholes will provide new opportunities for players interested in flying lighter ships than are common in the current wormhole meta, and roaming into nullsec with fast wolfpacks.


Phoenix Jones wrote:

Basically they made a roaming gang of cheap ships viable.



Because before these new WHs, roaming gangs of frigates was not viable since they couldn't fit in thought the existing WHs.

Wait... ;)


Sarcasm aside, justifying this WHs simply because NOW we will be able to roam in frigates is not logical. You could do it BEFORE using the existing WHs. Only difference is the existing ones can collapse trapping everybody in the wrong side, but that, son, that's WH life for you.

I think the idea of adding connections is great.
The justification for the low mass seems kinda weak.
The permanent (until it reaches EOL and dies) WH idea is just bad.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#67 - 2014-08-06 17:53:09 UTC
Sounds fun, but please give us the option to change clones as others have said.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#68 - 2014-08-06 17:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Just so there is no confusion, this will be cheap but it needs to be.
WH space will be like the 70s almost everywhere will have a disco (battleship)Lol (smart bombs for those who do not know)Cool

Thats fine, we can deal with loss.

But PLEASE let us swap clones before we go on these roams, Pods are going to pop like never before.Shocked

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#69 - 2014-08-06 18:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Saisin wrote:
Totally like the idea, good job!

I disagree with players stating to do something about clone jumping in WH.. Making it easier to bring high value implants in WH simply facilitates settling WHs.
Now having a medical bay to respawn in a WH (after being podded) is something I can get along with as a middle ground, as long it belongs within a manned ship and not a structure (a T2 orca for example...)


The ONLY reason I and many other wormholers Pod people in wormholes is to ensure they cannot reship immediately, killboards, tears and other "stuff" is in the big scheme of things meaningless. Jumping and respawning in wormholes is a really really bad idea that completely changes how life takes place here, swapping clones should be the absolute limit, and is really needed as a feature.

And in case you did not read the dev blog Fozzie SPECIFICALLY said that preventing settling in wormholes was NOT a goal.

I agree that preventing settling altogether is not a goal.... I just said that any risk free high values implants clone would facilitate settling too much in WHs

Even swapping clones makes it too easy to farm and maximize and maintain WH settlements.
High value implants are already pretty close to pay-to-win, and should have no easy use in WH.
So I am also strongly against clone swapping in WH.

I can see the point about re shipping, But the idea of having a truly deep exploration ship like a t2 orca has been on my mind for a while, and to do deep exploration, you do need to be able to have a reasonable chance of not loosing access to your exploration assets when things go wrong. I am sure the re shipping as a home defense mechanism, as you seem to imply, can be handled in another way...

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-08-06 18:02:05 UTC
I don't think anyone is going to go roam around WH space in frigate fleets, and if they do, it will be as some sort of monthly joke roam.

It's already super easy to get frigate fleets out to nullsec through wormhole space.

This combined with the other changes will make seeding scouts pretty much a risk free and almost free intel.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#71 - 2014-08-06 18:03:35 UTC
I finally see the issue with this.

There is no actual flood control with this wormhole (at least not yet). Meaning that as many can come in as wanted (its basically a gate for frigates, destroyers and heavy dictors).

You potentially have no control at all regarding how many people enter unless you have a sensor boosted alpha fleet or a smart bombing fleet on the hole 24/7.

It is not a issue now, but I see this becoming an issue later.

Have to see how the hole mechanics work.

Yaay!!!!

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#72 - 2014-08-06 18:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Saisin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Saisin wrote:
Totally like the idea, good job!

I disagree with players stating to do something about clone jumping in WH.. Making it easier to bring high value implants in WH simply facilitates settling WHs.
Now having a medical bay to respawn in a WH (after being podded) is something I can get along with as a middle ground, as long it belongs within a manned ship and not a structure (a T2 orca for example...)


The ONLY reason I and many other wormholers Pod people in wormholes is to ensure they cannot reship immediately, killboards, tears and other "stuff" is in the big scheme of things meaningless. Jumping and respawning in wormholes is a really really bad idea that completely changes how life takes place here, swapping clones should be the absolute limit, and is really needed as a feature.

And in case you did not read the dev blog Fozzie SPECIFICALLY said that preventing settling in wormholes was NOT a goal.

I agree that preventing settling altogether is not a goal.... I just said that any risk free high values implants clone would facilitate settling too much in WHs

Even swapping clones makes it too easy to farm and maximize and maintain WH settlements.
High value implants are already pretty close to pay-to-win, and should have no easy use in WH.
So I am also strongly against clone swapping in WH.

I can see the point about re shipping, But the idea of having a truly deep exploration ship like a t2 orca has been on my mind for a while, and to do deep exploration, you do need to be able to have a reasonable chance of not loosing access to your exploration assets when things go wrong. I am sure the re shipping as a home defense mechanism, as you seem to imply, can be handled in another way...



Currently if you are podded out, you lose access to your home if you have not taken the precaution of having alts logged off in the hole to scan you back in.
The point is that one pods ones opponents so that they are not shooting at you one minute later.
Wormholers wish to be able to swap clones only. Within the hole they occupy.

Why? so we can enjoy for example the new frigate mechanics.
Would anyone with slaves for example choose to jump blind into a "mini hole" when there is a smart bombing battleship on the other side? Thought not.

as for risk free? you lose your pos you lose all your clones and all those lovely implants.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Elana Apgar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-08-06 18:06:52 UTC
Honestly, I don't like this idea.

Most wormholers don't really seem interested in frigate fights. When our connections get low on mass, we often try and set them up with the residents of the connection, and most of the time, it gets turned down. Also, that's kinda what factional warfare is for. I'd rather trek out to lowsec in a frigate where I won't get bubbled and therefore podded, whereas in wormhole space that would be very possible.

I'd rather see random W-Space to W-Space wormholes that have a higher max jump mass so that wormhole residents in the lower class wormholes could bring their capitals to fight. I don't play Eve to be in frigate fights...again, I can find that any day of the week by going to factional warfare. I play Eve for epic fleet/capital fights.

The only reason that lower class wormhole residents have capitals is to protect their home. It would be far more fun to be able to use those ships for PVP like the residents of C5's and C6's are able to do.
Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#74 - 2014-08-06 18:10:34 UTC
I like rolling around in dictors and bombers as much as the next corpse collector, but I confess that doing so in my blingy pod designed to work with other, bigger ships is not something I feel compelled to do by space bushido. We have limited resources, so we invest more heavily in what we do have. Being able to cloneswap in w-space would make this change much more relevant to my interests.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#75 - 2014-08-06 18:18:13 UTC
This can essentially create a temporary superhighway for destroyers and smaller. It might be more beneficial to a group based outside of J-space since their home system could provide better logistics.
Thom Mangum
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#76 - 2014-08-06 18:18:14 UTC
Interesting change; too bad the primary use of these will likely be marking them as red DO NOT ENTER on siggy, and ignoring anything past there (unless it is directly into people running sites, in which case a different entrance will be scanned out (and why would anyone do PvE with one of these in their hole?)

We love our frigate roams in blue-fire but they have extremely limited use in wormhole space, especially when the other party likely won't be restricted by the mass limitations of these holes. Right now if you are going roaming through these holes you are left with sub-par logistics frigates, no links, and weak ships vs. anything the other parties have to blob you with.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#77 - 2014-08-06 18:32:57 UTC
Why would you want to bring a frigswarm into a wormhole? While catching a siterunner in k-space works well if you try that against an omnitanked Wh ratter with sleepers on grid you might get him, but you will loose quiet a few ships.
RF a tower, you can already do that. Also it is easily handable and a sign of the bomberpilots hating their lives.
I explicitly remember ProbePartol bringing bombergangs through crit holes.

Overall it is a fun gimmick that will allow scouts to get in and out, but that is about it.
Cirillith
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-08-06 18:39:43 UTC
First of all - Thank you CCP Fozzie for publishing that Devblog.

Now to the point :)

To be honest with you - I have no idea if this is a good change.

I red your description of this new WH few times and for me it looks like description of idea on new place in New Eden - some new content... It's lacking some details I guess, like how this place could be useful for players. And of course I do understand that they could be used as "new road system" through W-Space and Wspace-Kspace, but I think this idea got some bigger potential.

Maybe you should design some content for destroyer/frigate class - just for newbies to encourage them to come into W-space. Shortcut role won't provide that. Maybe you should after all take some ideas showed like over a year ago on Fanfest 2013 Live Game Design Session (Youtube film).

And I do not think POD value (issues from above posts :) - of course would be nice to have some structure at the POS where you could swap clones - I can imagine crucial use of that in case of flying with many doctrines, since armor or shield usually needs other implants ^^) is relevant here since whole EvE lays on one basic rule - don't fly anything you can't afford to loose :)

General picture here is promising - that change got very big potential and needs move DEV love.
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#79 - 2014-08-06 18:40:59 UTC
Dama Arishe wrote:
Can we have T3 frigs now? :)


basically this. the problem isnt that our pods are too expensive. its the frigs that are too cheap Cool
Mindraak
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2014-08-06 18:47:45 UTC
i find this complete waste of dev time... it brings no content to WH life. just ask yourself how many frigs do you need to kill a cap ship. might be interesting when the WH is between two k-space systems but for us it will be just annoying.

big minus from me. please invest this time into corp/pos management