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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

First post
Author
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
The Initiative.
#21 - 2014-08-06 15:27:30 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
ExookiZ wrote:
can you explain your reasoning in "frigate" only? I just dont see this doing anything. Up in classes where people have capitals youd need a extremely large blob to even bother anyone


Well this means that people cannot totally collapse wormholes without getting someone running into them. Planting scouts become a bit easier, and finding middle of the road fights become more viable.

You "technically" should run into more frigate/destroyer gangs in wormhole space.

I don't see this as being a way to go in and destroy capitals, but a way of creating more logistical movement in wormhole space itself (you can kill lower non-capital stuff ya know).

Basically they made a roaming gang of cheap ships viable.

They just have to find a way to cloneswap in wormhole space and people will go do this (its fun).


Well the issue I see is that this restricts one side to frigates, while the other will still just fleet up as normal. 2 guardians and 1 proteus can easily handle 4X their numbers in small ships ( less if you bring kitsunes I suppose), but since the other side isnt forced to use just small ships they probably wont.

Event Organizer of EVE North East

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#22 - 2014-08-06 15:28:45 UTC
Traiori wrote:
Flying cheap frigates in wormspace would be nice if my pod wasn't worth twice as much as most frigates I could fly.



The pod issue is truly significant.
Unless it is addressed this frigate idea, whilst extremely good, just will not actually happen much.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-08-06 15:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Rek Seven wrote:
Seems like an interesting addition but i don't really see the advantage of only being able to take frigates to fight the guys you are connected to... seems like it's a case of taking a knife to a gun fight.

Fozzie, please don't ignore this comment:
naed21 wrote:
Sounds like fun, however i'd be nice to be able to change out clones so we can take advantage of these "encouraged frigate roams" without worrying about losing pirate implants constantly.

Any word in that regard? I know people have talked about letting the rorqual do clone swapping.



Would they actually commit to doing "pve" with one of these wormholes open? Its the risk they take.

It'd be interesting to see if frigates would be capable of taking on a capital escalation small gang. If not, they could find "buddies" or "backup".

You bring a knife to a gunfight, .. yup. Survive long enough for the police to come over and shoot the gunman :-)

The more I think of it, the more I like it.

There are more benefits than people realize to this.

1) Logistical frigates become viable
2) Small gangs have a new meta
3) There are holes that people can't close. Yes they can can it, bubble it, etc. With interceptors and how they work now.. well there is now a persistent danger to a group (not a HUGE persistent danger, but a persistent danger none the less).
4) If you so want, take your small gang, go run a site or two (its not isk efficient, but it is fun, while waiting for your scouts to find pew. Now this is silly, but it is an option (and you make your group a good 20 to 50 million while waiting).

Yes the last one was silly, but I do not inherently see any "bad" in this.

I see some comedy deaths happening with Marauders being solo'd by a assault frigate and a Logi Frig.

The pod issue has to be addressed.

Making a POD swapping module for a POS would do it (so the pod would become a permanent fixture in a POS. The POS Module is destroyed? All the Pods and Implants blow up too.

Think of it as a Personal Hanger Array for PODS. They can't be removed by directors, can't be destroyed externally. If you really want to make it interesting, give it CPU so that it shuts down and is not accessible when the POS is reinforced.

Yaay!!!!

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#24 - 2014-08-06 15:31:51 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
are multi-bubble heavy dictors allowed intentionally or what. is it like it makes no sense for them to be let through, but you don't want to bother messing with them because they're terrible anyway?


Its a mass issue. You can reduce their mass by a huge amount. I'm pretty sure they couldn't restrict their use without having to do some funky coding to identify that it was a heavy dictor and to say "no".

Simpler solution.

Whether they'll be used more.. dunno.


simple solution would be removing the speed/agility/mass changes on hictor points and just have them disable prop mods. wtb heavy dictor rebalance, they're stupid.
Moo Moocow
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#25 - 2014-08-06 15:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Moo Moocow
I'd like a clone jumping array to swap out implants. That's well overdue. And I probably won't use the frig wormholes without it.

I'm surprised farming is being made harder between the massed based spawn distance's & the frigate wormholes.

I still think the spawn range change is bad nerf.

people won't want to risk rolling their hole. Which means they'll probably log off and eventually some will leave wormhole space.

Loving the new c4 dual static changes :D
DirtyJob
High Voltage Industries
#26 - 2014-08-06 15:33:16 UTC
Fresh idea. I like fact that it will not outright kill smaller groups. Even if someone would drop on them they have chance to kill few agressors.
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-08-06 15:35:11 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
are multi-bubble heavy dictors allowed intentionally or what. is it like it makes no sense for them to be let through, but you don't want to bother messing with them because they're terrible anyway?


Its a mass issue. You can reduce their mass by a huge amount. I'm pretty sure they couldn't restrict their use without having to do some funky coding to identify that it was a heavy dictor and to say "no".

Simpler solution.

Whether they'll be used more.. dunno.


simple solution would be removing the speed/agility/mass changes on hictor points and just have them disable prop mods. wtb heavy dictor rebalance, they're stupid.


These ships are pretty widely used in closing wormholes that have a Micron amount of mass in it (aka you did your math wrong) or the variance was off by 500,000 mass.

Do Heavy Interdictors need a rebalance pass. Yes.

Not the thread to discuss their balance though.

I'm ok with them coming as most will be fit for mega tank and no gank.

Yaay!!!!

Luminocity
The Dark Revenants
PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
#28 - 2014-08-06 15:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Luminocity
Traiori wrote:
Flying cheap frigates in wormspace would be nice if my pod wasn't worth twice as much as most frigates I could fly.
+1 for possibility to clone-swap within the same system in W-space
Luminocity
The Dark Revenants
PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
#29 - 2014-08-06 15:37:02 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I'm ok with them coming as most will be fit for mega tank and no gank.
Mobile depo?
Stacy Lone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-08-06 15:37:14 UTC
I'm not really sure that this change is healthy for the game over all.

Right now, WH space is the only space were new players can actually life in and have some kind of their "own" system. I came to eve early this year, after having played some hours a year before. But this time I stuck with it.

As a new player, you quickly realize that you have not many options when you want to create your own space empire or jus get your own home. You can either join a big coalition and be meaningless with your subpar skills. HERO didn't exist back then, so getting your own piece of the universe (getting sov) simply wasn't an option, even if you started with some friends. And renting isn't an option, either. New players simply can not afford rent. We don#t have carriers to rat or else. So, my friends and I (5 players using more then 10 accounts by now) decided to give W-space a try.

We are now happily living an a C2 with static high sec and C3. By now, most of us fly their t3s very well and we use our C3 static regularly to kill sleepers. We even used our last c4 connection to go into the c4 and killed sleepers there. That went smoooth, and now we are giving it a thought to try to move into a c4 with static c4. We like that c4s are more quiet then other w-space systems.

Beign new players means we don't have much money. We already lost some t3s to roams due to inexperience and failure in getting the proper intel, but we get by.

If you can not longer close your home system, then w-space will be dead for newbies. And with it EVE, excpet for high sec. Sure, you can go roaming in low sec, but you can not have a "home" there. And you will probably need to make money in high sec. Getting into null and actually occupying some space is already impossible, so w-space is the last space were even noobs can plant a flag (or a pos ar two) and have their very own space home.

But if you can not close your home anymore, then you can not do mining anymore, which is an important base income. And if you can not find wormhole connections to wormholes that have only 1 or two additional connections so that you can watch (and maybe bubble) them, then we can not go kill sleepers anymore. Because well fit destroyer/frigate gang can still hurt inexperienced players in t3s with relatively small ISK risk.


What problem does this change try to solve anyways? Wspace is already full of very healthy fights, there's no need to make it even more uncontrollable. At last not in c1-c4. Maybe c5/c6 needs to be more spiced in order to kill capital escalation fleets easier, but there is certainly no need for frigate pvp in wspace in general.


I'm very concerned that some of these changes will hurt new, low-sp player with relatively small ISK very badly, while providing no real content to the already estabished, powerful wspace residents. I can't imagine the established, rich alliances getting fun out of trashing frigs.
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-08-06 15:38:55 UTC
Traiori wrote:
Flying cheap frigates in wormspace would be nice if my pod wasn't worth twice as much as most frigates I could fly.


Twice as much?

Frigates (lets say a T1 destroyer, runs 10 million.

Pods currently 2.5 billion....

2,500,000,000 / 10,000,000.

Yea my pod is currently worth 250X more than the frigate/destroyer I would like to fly.

While I am a bit risk adverse, I'm not batsh-t stupid to do that in a T1 or even a T2 frigate in nullsec or wormhole space.

I would easily commit a 50 million isk pod though.

Cloneswap Module for PoS to make New Meta for wormhole space.

Yaay!!!!

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-08-06 15:41:49 UTC
Luminocity wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I'm ok with them coming as most will be fit for mega tank and no gank.
Mobile depo?


Mobile Depot + Guns + ammo + Mods+ Cap batteries

The Storage Space of the Heavy Interdictor isn't THAT much.

You would not be able to hit a frigate with a heavy interdictor anyway (less you mount small guns/missiles, which are more common than most people want to admit on dictors).

Yaay!!!!

DirtyJob
High Voltage Industries
#33 - 2014-08-06 15:44:03 UTC
Stacy Lone wrote:

I'm very concerned that some of these changes will hurt new, low-sp player with relatively small ISK very badly, while providing no real content to the already estabished, powerful wspace residents. I can't imagine the established, rich alliances getting fun out of trashing frigs.



ohh.. of course they will have fun trashing frighs on some marauder or anything killing sleepers. But you are right that CCP needs to consider this addition. Thank Bob they put very strict limit on ship mass passing through such unlimited hole.

Maybe limit this hole to not connect to low end W-space?

Imho till it won't allow cruise it looks OK.
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-08-06 15:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
ExookiZ wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
ExookiZ wrote:
can you explain your reasoning in "frigate" only? I just dont see this doing anything. Up in classes where people have capitals youd need a extremely large blob to even bother anyone


Well this means that people cannot totally collapse wormholes without getting someone running into them. Planting scouts become a bit easier, and finding middle of the road fights become more viable.

You "technically" should run into more frigate/destroyer gangs in wormhole space.

I don't see this as being a way to go in and destroy capitals, but a way of creating more logistical movement in wormhole space itself (you can kill lower non-capital stuff ya know).

Basically they made a roaming gang of cheap ships viable.

They just have to find a way to cloneswap in wormhole space and people will go do this (its fun).


Well the issue I see is that this restricts one side to frigates, while the other will still just fleet up as normal. 2 guardians and 1 proteus can easily handle 4X their numbers in small ships ( less if you bring kitsunes I suppose), but since the other side isnt forced to use just small ships they probably wont.


Yea you are right here. It doesn't mean you are committed to die. Just move on, harass them, etc. You can't win every engagement. They may bring 5 to 6 guardians, they may drop a carrier, they may blueball you. But they cannot chase you either. They really can't see what you have on the otherside less they bring a scout (and with a dictor on the hole + your gang, you will either decloak them and kill them, or force them back onto the otherside).


You may ransom their capital or call for backup.

Hell you could potentially batphone for 100 frigates or destroyers (god 100 catalysts jumping into a wormhole fight would be comical).

I see potential for fights in the middle of random wormholes in cheaper ships people would be willing to risk. IF they come up with a way to swap clones at your pos, this would be a excellent change.

Yaay!!!!

Luminocity
The Dark Revenants
PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
#35 - 2014-08-06 15:48:10 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Luminocity wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I'm ok with them coming as most will be fit for mega tank and no gank.
Mobile depo?


Mobile Depot + Guns + ammo + Mods+ Cap batteries

The Storage Space of the Heavy Interdictor isn't THAT much.

You would not be able to hit a frigate with a heavy interdictor anyway (less you mount small guns/missiles, which are more common than most people want to admit on dictors).

You'd not be limited to a single pass so on a theoretical level you can haul in however much you want. Or have a dedicated module/ammo/whatever hauler. People are quite resourceful when it comes to taking advantage of possibilities to turn the tables to their side.

Not that effective against frigates? perhaps not. Against destroyers, much more so..

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying they should be barred from entering. I'm just saying they may give an unfair advantage in some cases.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#36 - 2014-08-06 15:50:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the increase in random wormhole spawning and introduction of the new small ship wormholes that we announced in our recently released dev blog.



Fozzie, as far as I can tell all of these changes (including the other threads) are good if not great.

To address people's pod worries, it would be nice if we could use rorquals to switch pods in wormholes. Maybe when the rorqual gets updated?
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-08-06 15:51:35 UTC
Luminocity wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Luminocity wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I'm ok with them coming as most will be fit for mega tank and no gank.
Mobile depo?


Mobile Depot + Guns + ammo + Mods+ Cap batteries

The Storage Space of the Heavy Interdictor isn't THAT much.

You would not be able to hit a frigate with a heavy interdictor anyway (less you mount small guns/missiles, which are more common than most people want to admit on dictors).

You'd not be limited to a single pass so on a theoretical level you can haul in however much you want. Or have a dedicated module/ammo/whatever hauler. People are quite resourceful when it comes to taking advantage of possibilities to turn the tables to their side.

Not that effective against frigates? perhaps not. Against destroyers, much more so..

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying they should be barred from entering. I'm just saying they may give an unfair advantage in some cases.


In this case. I think its ok. It would require testing to see what happens. This isn't something we can easily theorycraft (because we can't I see this as a decent option), because.. well its never really been done in wormhole space before.

I'm ok with trying it out. If changes have to happen they can happen, but this gives people options (I agree the heavy dictor could be looked at).

Yaay!!!!

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-08-06 15:53:26 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the increase in random wormhole spawning and introduction of the new small ship wormholes that we announced in our recently released dev blog.



Fozzie, as far as I can tell all of these changes (including the other threads) are good if not great.

To address people's pod worries, it would be nice if we could use rorquals to switch pods in wormholes. Maybe when the rorqual gets updated?


Agreed, but there is a reason I (as well as others) have been asking for a pos module vs a rorqual.

1) the rorqual requires a pilot to operate and fly it
2) it overcomplicates the ship
3) No glorious killmail with pods in it.
4) Slower process.
5) the rorqual should be more than a pod swap ship.

A cloneswap method should be available to wormhole space so that people won't freak about about losing.

Yaay!!!!

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#39 - 2014-08-06 15:56:17 UTC
Totally like the idea, good job!

I disagree with players stating to do something about clone jumping in WH.. Making it easier to bring high value implants in WH simply facilitates settling WHs.
Now having a medical bay to respawn in a WH (after being podded) is something I can get along with as a middle ground, as long it belongs within a manned ship and not a structure (a T2 orca for example...)

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Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-08-06 16:00:50 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Totally like the idea, good job!

I disagree with players stating to do something about clone jumping in WH.. Making it easier to bring high value implants in WH simply facilitates settling WHs.
Now having a medical bay to respawn in a WH (after being podded) is something I can get along with as a middle ground, as long it belongs within a manned ship and not a structure (a T2 orca for example...)


Not clone jumping, Clone Swapping.

You move to pos module, click "swap clone".

Your clone jump timer initiates.

You swap into a empty clone.

Your original "implanted clone", stays in the pos module.

No medical bays, no jumping to other systems. A simple "swap into clone". You cannot target a clone in a swap bay as a target to jump to (its basically just storage for 1 clone).

Make it so that the POS mod can hold 1 clone per person (you want multiple clones, you have to anchor multiple POS mods).

I would make this fairly expensive on powergrid and cpu.


Yaay!!!!