Wormholes

Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.

RNG ganks != goodfights.

If possible, I'd like the other thread that I've created also taken into account here as a thread with player suggestions.
The community reaction to this change is very well deserved.

I'm not saying that changes are bad - I love pretty much every single thing planned for Hyperion, except this one.

I just cannot swallow it.

Reasons were listed in this and old thread, hopefully you don't need me to repeat myself.

We have been discussing this mechanic in our corp since it was discovered, and I haven't heard a positive opinion on it yet.
(Mind you, it wouldn't hurt hard knocks at all apart from time consumed while ragerolling, as we always have a complete intel on our chains, keep scouts on high alert for new sigs, we're familiar with every entity that's a threat to us in W-space).

Even if our carrier / dreadnaught gets caught, we can assemble a massive support fleet in a very little time.

Unlike smaller folks in WH. This change will be crippling to their everyday activities.
Not only finding content will be MUCH harder to do, be it PvP, PvE, or even a K-space connection to sell / buy things will bear an unreasonable risk, it will also consume much more time, basically making this game a struggle, instead of being a game (supposed to be fun right?).

Many of you probably participated in ragerolling. It requires commitment from most of the corp members (requires a big player numbers), constant high-alert as a decision to risk some tens of billion of isk might happen anytime.
Then there's time.
8 minutes per hole? That's scanning, warping, rolling, waiting for new sig and checking out the new system again.
To make the calculations easier, let's round it up to 10 holes an hour.
Only a small percentage of eve players lives in Wormholes, and most of those afaik are in c1-c2 doing industry stuff.
Chance to find a group that is active, doing something outside of their POS shields and in a position where they can be engaged in one way or another is already very low. Slowing down rage rolling isn't serving ANY positive purposes, only negative ones.
As I said - crippling to smaller group possibilites and making already painful activity (ragerolling) even worse.

I could repeat every thing that was already said, but I feel like all our moaning is to no avail.
Please prove me wrong CCP.

#edit
Reading that "fixing" active modules influence on distance convinced me that our moaning here is meaningless, as the code was already written and it's making its was to Tranquility.

I am dissapointed, and very sad.

The K162 spawn thing doesn't accomplish this goal either. It makes it far easier to warp to all your holes and not jump through to avoid spawning the other side, where previously one had to not warp to them.

I've been living in one WH or another ever since they were implemented and and here is my 2 cents:

In addition to Traiori's original arguments with which I completely agree, I'd like to add that the spawn range distance will discourage small and medium groups from rolling their statics and since large groups are verry scace in WH space, it makes WH chains a lot more static/unchangin overall.

You will basically be able to relly that system A which is currently connected to system B via 7 WHs, will still be connected 10 hours from now (as long as no WHs large groups live in the interim systems and no WHs naturally reached end of life). The increased number of random WHs won't make any difference in this.

As per people 'adapting' and finding new ways to colapse WHs, you can only make an orca/dread move so fast , can only field so many 'colapse' fit battleships in a medium sized corp and untimately ain't nobody got time for that. Rather just treat WHs chains like nullspace and just go roaming in them .... I sincearly hope this is not what's actually intended becauseif so, I'd rather just go back to mining which is what i did for the first 2 years of eve.

This idea is bad for so many reasons written above ... if u want to slow down wormhole rolling how about making it less invasive into actual combat tactics ... as was written above, dreads spawning too far from carrier makes big tactical disadvantage ...
How about adding mass-based jump timer instead mass-based wormhole distance ...
For example ... average dread after jumping trough wormohle will have 150 sec jump timer for any wormhole ... timer will start ticking after decloack ... Carrier 120 sec, BS 30 sec etc.

Rage-rolling to force connections is part of that uncertainty for the receiving end. This makes it much more difficult for larger entities to brew content.

On first view I would have to say no to this feature, but I am sure that those of us who live in WHs will quickly adapt to this, but adding needless extra time to hole rolling is not the answer here.

If this stays in the expansion then perhaps adding a module to a ship that significantly increases the mass of a smaller faster ship so that they could be used as an alternative to jumping a Dread/Carrier through a WH, this would be a good solution for smaller corps that operate in WHs. Would be nice to have something as an alternative to jumping an Orca back and forth all the time to collapse holes.

The dynamic quality of wormholes creates an environment where you can go several days without having anything to shoot. This being a game where the primary goal is to shoot things, some amount of control needs to be there. We're not suggesting we get a menu where we can select which hole we roll into next, and we're not asking for any advantage we haven't already had. We're just asking that the current mechanic not be made worse.

IMO, we have to stop assuming that increasing the risk of conflict = more conflict. That's simply not true. CCP, you have years of data to prove it's not true. All of your data tells you it is not.

Look at low sec. There's more risk to miners. So by this logic, there should be lots of miner kills in lowsec. Check your data, but I think we all know it doesn't happen often. Question: What actually did increase conflict in low sec? Why, allowing a high income for cheap ships. Decreasing the risk for PVE, increased PVP.

The Mittani apparently understood the truth, as he posted that ratters are the plankton of the Nullsec food chain. What is good for ratters is good for their hunters, and for the hunters of the hunters, and so on up the chain. The concept is universal in all areas of Eve, and probably many other games. Increasing the attractiveness of an area for PVE, will increase it's attractiveness for PVP.

Why is this not understood?

If you intend to make it less safe for PVE, you have to institute a corresponding change to make PVE more valuable to match the increased risk. Otherwise, you're going to end up with less... Plankton. BTW, this is exactly what happened when making grav sigs into ore anoms.

This is sort of a general comment aimed at many of your changes.

-We will have constant frigate holes into systems where miners can be caught just by warping to an ore anom. What miner in his right mind will ever mine with one of these small WH's in his system? They will POS-hug for the entire day, at best. This also applies to running anoms in low-class wormholes, where a pack of frigates can easily take down a solo site runner. After a few cheap kills, they simply won't do it anymore, and activity will decrease all the way up the food chain. If you still want miners to die in wormholes, you're going to need to throw them a bone so they come out of their dens. Bring back Grav sigs IMO.

-You have made it more difficult to use one mechanism a miner or (low class solo) site runner still has to maintain any level of safety. Hole control. Personally I don't like hole-control being used as the means to safety, and would prefer the grav sigs return with their need to watch the D. But you've provided no counterbalance to what will seem to them to be a nerf. Continually adjusting the game to remove whatever means the PVErs try to use to balance their risk, is just going to reduce their activity in J-space. It's not going to give us more kills. It's going to give us less kills.

This is my primary objection when considering these two changes. Though not my only one.

First off, I want to make it clear that I do not represent all of Hard Knocks or in what portion I do infact represent because at the very core you have much of HK split on this issue. In my opinion this is a direct attack on larger wormhole based entities. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I fought for a very long time to shrink HK and get us under 200 pilots.

I think the thing to keep in mind when doing these 6 week patches is that you need to test them more than 2 weeks. This is a fairly massive change to the way wormholes currently function and even with all the negative feedback in just the last few days, it seems you haven't given much of a care and decided to go ahead anyways. In fact, if you took this out of the patch and moved forward without just the remaining changes I have no doubt that wormholers would praise this as one of the better patches for us since the original induction, largely because the remaining patches are manageable tweaks as opposed to sweeping changes to the fundamentals of wormholes space.

Let's be honest here, we all know there are people who have holes for the sole purpose of making boatloads of ISK. The reality to that is those pilots have spent billions in additional pilots and ships and are taking a massive 5 minute risk in order to reap their rewards with no local and people like Hard Knocks trying to find them and kill them. Comparatively the risk is almost non-existent for an IS Boxer running incursions or any plain old ratting carrier who is semi paying attention. This patch could easily double, possibly even triple the risk they take for no additional reward. Consequently it may no longer be reasonable risk for them to continue with the status quo thus providing less content to entities who primarily hunt as an occupation such as Hard Knocks and others.

That being said, many of these wormholes are owned and run by members of larger entities because the ISK making opportunities in larger corps are scarce as you are forced to share profits with increasingly more mouths on less substance. I am not saying they shouldn't have any risk, but spawning capitals 20k off a wormhole is not the way to do it. Mostly because it makes rolling wormholes harder, and near impossible for smaller entities but also limits our ability to engage k-space entities without knowing those capitals will die.

This change must be removed in my opinion. Find me another way to increase risk, and I'll gladly swap it for the ability to not spawn 20km off a wormhole in a 7B dread.