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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#341 - 2014-07-29 21:00:06 UTC
Deeone wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i expected the ishtar change ... will the domi change aswell then?

Eagle
- i did say in the HAC page it was far too slow .. would be nice at 200 along with some drones .. it has a dronebay now on the model and would allow for blaster variants then instead of only rails ...

Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???



Speed is the min resilience.......Seriously its made out of rust and tape you really think it can tank?


just compare the vaga to the stabber and cynabal and even orthrus now..
............speed /mass
vaga - 295 / 11.59
stabber - 290 / 11.4
cynabal - 263 / 9.0
orthrus - 245 / 9.3

yet the other 3 don't get the same kind of resilience , cap, sensor strength or tank = shield booster and T2 bonuses

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#342 - 2014-07-29 21:05:09 UTC
HAC speeds

Vaga - 290
Muninn - 210 (230 proposed )

Deimos - 230
Ishtar - 195 ( 185 proposed)

Cerberus - 220
Eagle - 180 (190 proposed)

Sacrilege - 200
Zealot - 210

seems very off too me atm

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#343 - 2014-07-29 21:07:02 UTC
The only reason sentries are so potent now is that few bother to take into account that there are other ways of killing things besides to charge in and use the highest damaging weapons at point blank range.

Part of this is due to the need to point targets, as if Arazu and Lachesis, faction points, and skirmish warfare didn't exist.

Part is just the resistance to change, and some is that damage trumps all.

Basically, sentries do have hard counters but few choose to use them because it interferes with how they want to fight otherwise. Unless there is a reason that particular bubble of space is more valuable than your own, make them come to you. Sentry boats are not as mobile as others.

Failure on the meta to adapt does not mean the weapon is broken, it means that some factor within how people want to fight is outweighing the danger posed by the weapon.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#344 - 2014-07-29 21:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
Mike Voidstar wrote:

This is part of the balance to drones.

They can be individually targeted and easily destroyed. They do low end of average damage for weapons of their size, with fewer options to increase that.


this proposed ewar would make it too easy.
compromise:
when the droneship get hit by ewar drones stop shooting.
they still orbit their last target, if that target get destroyed they move to their next target as per standard drone rules but wont do any damage.
their owner can recall them (orbit or dronebay), nothing else till ewar get broken.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#345 - 2014-07-29 21:10:12 UTC
Sara Tosa wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:

This is part of the balance to drones.

They can be individually targeted and easily destroyed. They do low end of average damage for weapons of their size, with fewer options to increase that.


this proposed ewar would make it too easy.
compromise:
when the droneship get hit by ewar drones stop shooting.
they still orbit their last target, if that target get destroyed they move to their next target as per standard drone rules but wont do any damage.
their owner can recall them (orbit or dronebay), nothing else till ewar get broken.



I will then counter propose that in addition to the change you suggest that drones under ECM effects also become immune to damage and regen all health bars to full inside of 30 seconds.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#346 - 2014-07-29 21:12:10 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:

This is part of the balance to drones.

They can be individually targeted and easily destroyed. They do low end of average damage for weapons of their size, with fewer options to increase that.


this proposed ewar would make it too easy.
compromise:
when the droneship get hit by ewar drones stop shooting.
they still orbit their last target, if that target get destroyed they move to their next target as per standard drone rules but wont do any damage.
their owner can recall them (orbit or dronebay), nothing else till ewar get broken.



I will then counter propose that in addition to the change you suggest that drones under ECM effects also become immune to damage and regen all health bars to full inside of 30 seconds.


why? .. makes no sense ... dronebays should regen all drone damage really .. maybe a 10sec counter

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#347 - 2014-07-29 21:12:33 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:

This is part of the balance to drones.

They can be individually targeted and easily destroyed. They do low end of average damage for weapons of their size, with fewer options to increase that.


this proposed ewar would make it too easy.
compromise:
when the droneship get hit by ewar drones stop shooting.
they still orbit their last target, if that target get destroyed they move to their next target as per standard drone rules but wont do any damage.
their owner can recall them (orbit or dronebay), nothing else till ewar get broken.



I will then counter propose that in addition to the change you suggest that drones under ECM effects also become immune to damage and regen all health bars to full inside of 30 seconds.

3/10
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#348 - 2014-07-29 21:14:08 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The only reason sentries are so potent now is that few bother to take into account that there are other ways of killing things besides to charge in and use the highest damaging weapons at point blank range.

Part of this is due to the need to point targets, as if Arazu and Lachesis, faction points, and skirmish warfare didn't exist.

Part is just the resistance to change, and some is that damage trumps all.

Basically, sentries do have hard counters but few choose to use them because it interferes with how they want to fight otherwise. Unless there is a reason that particular bubble of space is more valuable than your own, make them come to you. Sentry boats are not as mobile as others.

Failure on the meta to adapt does not mean the weapon is broken, it means that some factor within how people want to fight is outweighing the danger posed by the weapon.


Your long point with bonus put you solidly into the optimal range of many sentry. What do you think will ahppen to your range bonused point ship when it gets into range to point the Ishtar? I'm pretty sure the Ishtar will hear 5 small boom in rapid succession and see your HP go down by a good amount. What can you do if for example the ishtar kite you around 60km from his already deployed senty? Follow him or kill his sentry? In both case, you are toast. If you kill his sentry, he deploy more which are now at a good range from you to shoot effectively or you follow him dancing around in his current set of sentry field of fire.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#349 - 2014-07-29 21:14:14 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Impressively scattered discussion so far. I can respond to a few things directly:

Anything related to the tournament - the tournament has no impact on game balance decisions. We handle tournament balance using tournament rules and I don't think we would ever postpone balance changes based on the tournament schedule. We want to try and make sure tournament participants are informed of incoming balance changes but we will never make compromises to the whole player base because of a tournament.

"Battleships are not in a good place, you crazy Rise" - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated, but if there's issues there (because of bombers for instance) we would more likely want to deal with that problem from the other direction (by making changes to bombers for instance) rather than changing every BS to compensate. Between Duckslayer's insults he mentioned MWD cap use on BS being a problem which I agree with and I may try to get a change for that in shortly.

Tempest - like watching this discussion, happy to see that a significant chunk of people seem to prefer it the way it is now.

Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.

Keep it comin


One change I would like to see for all battleships (short of removing ECM from the game !) is a boost to sensor strength. They are jammed by a 2m isk griffin far too easily and, besides the drone BSes, are completely crippled by this. Low sensor strength is actually a problem on HACs as well, particularly when soloing, and it hurts ships like the eagle more than ships like the ishtar. Also, I forgot the muninn even existed...it probably needs much more than a boost to speed.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#350 - 2014-07-29 21:15:19 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:

This is part of the balance to drones.

They can be individually targeted and easily destroyed. They do low end of average damage for weapons of their size, with fewer options to increase that.


this proposed ewar would make it too easy.
compromise:
when the droneship get hit by ewar drones stop shooting.
they still orbit their last target, if that target get destroyed they move to their next target as per standard drone rules but wont do any damage.
their owner can recall them (orbit or dronebay), nothing else till ewar get broken.



I will then counter propose that in addition to the change you suggest that drones under ECM effects also become immune to damage and regen all health bars to full inside of 30 seconds.


Why? Is there any ship getting damage immunity + free reps when they get ECM'd?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#351 - 2014-07-29 21:16:52 UTC
This change does not address the underlying problem with the Ishtar. Namely, sentry drones are broken.

They are a battleship size weapons platform.

Make it so only battleships can use them. Not cruisers, not carriers, JUST battleships. Make them require a role bonus.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

Basically, sentries do have hard counters but few choose to use them because it interferes with how they want to fight otherwise. Unless there is a reason that particular bubble of space is more valuable than your own, make them come to you. Sentry boats are not as mobile as others.


Yeah, you should counter kite the guys with a 90km range weapon system and a 2.5km/s or higher speed. Roll

There is a reason the "counters" you are talking about do not see widespread use.

It's because they're bad. The Arazu is lucky if it can stand up under a few moments firepower from an Ishtar. The Lachesis is a joke, in fact all of the Recon ships need about a ten thousand native hitpoint buff. But look, they have not been rebalanced yet.

Sentry drones have no real counters besides bombing, which is problematic against Ishtars for reasons that should be obvious. Nevermind carriers, who are immune to even that since their drone bays are so ridiculous.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#352 - 2014-07-29 21:17:46 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:

This is part of the balance to drones.

They can be individually targeted and easily destroyed. They do low end of average damage for weapons of their size, with fewer options to increase that.


this proposed ewar would make it too easy.
compromise:
when the droneship get hit by ewar drones stop shooting.
they still orbit their last target, if that target get destroyed they move to their next target as per standard drone rules but wont do any damage.
their owner can recall them (orbit or dronebay), nothing else till ewar get broken.



I will then counter propose that in addition to the change you suggest that drones under ECM effects also become immune to damage and regen all health bars to full inside of 30 seconds.


why? .. makes no sense ... dronebays should regen all drone damage really .. maybe a 10sec counter


The proposal is to remove one of the strongest advantages of using drones. That they remain effective, though uncontrolled under ECM effects.

I suggest then that they remain destructible only when they remain active, and when inactive that they regen their health in the timeframe of an ECM cycle. If you want to treat them like regular guns then they should be indestructible like regular guns.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2014-07-29 21:18:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

[

That's a pretty underwhelming nerf. Works out to less than 10% on the final stats. The issue with sentries is that their base stats have tracking halfway between medium short & long range guns. They don't really need buffs to be OP on a thing that can put out battleship DPS & range.

They need to attack the root of the problem and do a heavy balance pass on sentries entirely, but it's CCP, so they're probably going to progressively nerf the Ishtar until they figure out that Sentries are the real problem, nerf those into the ground, and then do nothing at all to compensate the Isthar afterwards and leave it utterly useless.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Vadeim Rizen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2014-07-29 21:18:09 UTC
you guys do realize if the ishtar was nerfed any more, people would quit using it all together, right? i like the proposed change. yes it has good range, and yes it has very good dps... but the dps is stationary! Meaning, you can orbit the drones and have them do little to no dps, you can burn away from them where they do 0 dps, you can kill the drones which neutralizes the dps... every other hac has mobile dps. the ship is balanced. lazy pvp'ers hate the ishtar.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#355 - 2014-07-29 21:24:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This change does not address the underlying problem with the Ishtar. Namely, sentry drones are broken.

They are a battleship size weapons platform.

Make it so only battleships can use them. Not cruisers, not carriers, JUST battleships. Make them require a role bonus.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

Basically, sentries do have hard counters but few choose to use them because it interferes with how they want to fight otherwise. Unless there is a reason that particular bubble of space is more valuable than your own, make them come to you. Sentry boats are not as mobile as others.


Yeah, you should counter kite the guys with a 90km range weapon system and a 2.5km/s or higher speed. Roll

There is a reason the "counters" you are talking about do not see widespread use.

It's because they're bad. The Arazu is lucky if it can stand up under a few moments firepower from an Ishtar. The Lachesis is a joke, in fact all of the Recon ships need about a ten thousand native hitpoint buff. But look, they have not been rebalanced yet.

Sentry drones have no real counters besides bombing, which is problematic against Ishtars for reasons that should be obvious. Nevermind carriers, who are immune to even that since their drone bays are so ridiculous.



The drones are not that strong, nor difficult to hit. Dedicate a ship or two to popping sentries at range, and there is little the Ishtar can do about it except leave.

You don't need bombs to kill drones, that's just silly.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#356 - 2014-07-29 21:26:08 UTC
It's easy to tell what people are training for the tourney...

...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#357 - 2014-07-29 21:27:04 UTC
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
you guys do realize if the ishtar was nerfed any more, people would quit using it all together, right? i like the proposed change. yes it has good range, and yes it has very good dps... but the dps is stationary! Meaning, you can orbit the drones and have them do little to no dps, you can burn away from them where they do 0 dps, you can kill the drones which neutralizes the dps... every other hac has mobile dps. the ship is balanced. lazy pvp'ers hate the ishtar.


It's not like you can abandon the drones being orbited and drop a new set 40+ km away so the guy orbiting your old sentry set is not trackable by the new set.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#358 - 2014-07-29 21:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
I don't understand why heavies and sentries are so good on cruiser platforms. Why use mediums? Heavies apply damage perfectly well with a web and sentries are just ridiculous at range.

Bonus cruisers for medium damage and bump sentries and heavies up to larger ship sizes.

Edit: I see you answered this - flexibility IS interesting for lights, mediums and heavies but sentries are not drones per se.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#359 - 2014-07-29 21:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
I find it hard to believe that anyone would believe battleships to be in a good place right now. Outside of anomalies and level 4 missions there's not much of a reason to use one. The trade offs just aren't worth the benefits. HACs do more applied DPS, tank just as well with sig tanking and have similar SP requirements, not to mention they warp much faster. Carriers are tougher and more flexible.

Why is it that the notion of powercreep applies to only two hull sizes in the game right now? Battleships and CBCs are a joke. Roll

Leave the tempest slot layout as is, and buff every BS hull.

Lets see some love for brawlers, and battleships to boot.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#360 - 2014-07-29 21:28:43 UTC
Nerfing sentry optimal/tracking seems to be missing the point. If the Ishtar lost the damage bonus for sentries while keeping it for the others would push them into a really interesting, flexible role and temper the BS dps at BS range nonsense.

Travelling at the speed of love.