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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Ginowan
Perkone
Caldari State
#201 - 2014-07-29 16:49:16 UTC
To quote Mr. Vee, from his BNI Masterclass:

"The core of the problem is that Ishtars are using battleship size doctrine (in sentry drones) on a heavy assault cruiser--it's a HAC--while having the DPS of a battleship and that unbalances them, I think. Like Dominixes aren't overpowered because (sic) have to deal with being fat and slow..sbut Ishtars are super mobile. The combination of the two, I think, is what makes to so popular that almost everyone is running them now."

So the solution was to lessen the drone tracking per level and ship speed, while buffing all other HAC's speed? Not enough.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2014-07-29 16:49:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


Have you considered changing sentries so that they keep up with and orbit the ship that deploys them? This would effectively turn them into a turret and would allow a pursuer to chase the ship down without it being a suicide run.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Alec16
Never Not AFK
#203 - 2014-07-29 16:49:43 UTC
Can you please look at the Sacrilege, I think i am the only person in EVE that has heavy assault missiles 5 without Caldari cruiser 5.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#204 - 2014-07-29 16:51:47 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.

So again, what about their intrinsic "vulnerability", which is not working as intended. I mean, drones should be destructible, but in practice it's too damn difficult to destroy 3+ flights of fat-butt sentries in a fight of any scale. Even if you have bombers, btw. (So bombers are not OP, just someone cannot use anti-bomber measures.)
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#205 - 2014-07-29 16:52:57 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


So there abandoned and a second set is launched.

Then abandoned and a 3rd set is launched :-/

You are trying to make an argument for keeping sentry drones on a cruiser.

They should have never been available for them as a full set in the first place. People cried when the stratios lost its ability to launch a full flight of sentry drones also. Sentry drones are oversized for the cruiser hulls they are used in.

Light drones are your frigate drones
Light/Medium your cruiser
Medium/Heavy your battlecruiser
Heavy/Sentries your battleship

There is some flexibility inbetween ranks but sentry drones are too large of a weapon platform to fit a full flight and say they are balanced in the cruiser platform area.

Yaay!!!!
Fishbone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2014-07-29 16:53:07 UTC
Novel idea

If someone wants to deploy sentries, lock the ship in place beside the drones, that way you no longer get these huge chains of drones that are abandoned based on the flow of battle. Wonder how many people would actually field ishtars if they were forced to sit with their sentry drones. Heaven forbid you help lock a ship into a specific role, like the ishtar was designed for.

Would be simple, you have the ground work already in place. Look at Cyno's - they are -100% speed, and unable to really do anything other than defend itself while the cyno is lit. Sentry drones deployed basicly equals a lit cyno, if that makes sense.

Just my 0.02 isk.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#207 - 2014-07-29 16:53:14 UTC
Regarding sentry drones being killable, they're really not as killable as you think, either. Remember -- sentry drones apply damage at range. In order to kill a sentry drone safely, you have to be able to apply damage to it at or greater than its range. Trying to apply damage to a sentry drone inside its effective range is not particularly viable, as sentry drones track better than any weapon system with similar range and apply damage nearly as effectively as most short range weapons systems. With regular drones, they have to come to you, allowing for a much greater variety of weapon systems to affect them. Sentries just chew up anything that's a threat before the drones even come to harm.

The only weapons systems that really pose a threat to sentry drones are bombs, and bombs both A) don't work in lowsec, and 2) have a polite 10 second detonation timer, allowing the ishtar to pull its drones before they are in danger, if they are in range. If not, the ishtar just shrugs and deploys one of its five replacement flights.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#208 - 2014-07-29 16:53:33 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


Have you considered changing sentries so that they keep up with and orbit the ship that deploys them? This would effectively turn them into a turret and would allow a pursuer to chase the ship down without it being a suicide run.


perhaps add a new type of sentry drone .. called mobile gundrones or something along those lines...

make ishtar damage bonus tied too them instead .. reduce their dps and range a little .. compared too the current sentries..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2014-07-29 16:53:53 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).

Where's the problem?



I blitz The Blockade, Level 4 (DED) with a shield isthar ... how about that! Isthar thanks almost every rat with ease! Unless you rat semi-afk

http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=Blockade4dd
Blueclaws
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#210 - 2014-07-29 16:58:18 UTC
Fishbone wrote:
Novel idea

If someone wants to deploy sentries, lock the ship in place beside the drones, that way you no longer get these huge chains of drones that are abandoned based on the flow of battle. Wonder how many people would actually field ishtars if they were forced to sit with their sentry drones. Heaven forbid you help lock a ship into a specific role, like the ishtar was designed for.

Would be simple, you have the ground work already in place. Look at Cyno's - they are -100% speed, and unable to really do anything other than defend itself while the cyno is lit. Sentry drones deployed basicly equals a lit cyno, if that makes sense.

Just my 0.02 isk.


Interesting idea. How about just reduce sentry control range dramatically?
Cherry Yeyo
Doomheim
#211 - 2014-07-29 16:59:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


These are no downsides at all. After every single battle involving sentry carriers or dominix or ishtars over the last year there is a big blob of sentries left behind. People are not killing them and cannot stop to shoot 750 drones while their dps is raining down on you.

Spreading out before dropping is modus operandi, they are not easiliy bombed away. The cost of leaving them behind is negligible.

.
Sixx Spades
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2014-07-29 17:01:50 UTC
Here's a simple change that Theta has been talking about.

Ishtar-
Drone Bandwidth: 100 (-25)
Hull Bonus: Reduces Heavy Drone Bandwidth down to 20


In effect, you keep your 5 Heavy Drones and bring down total Sentry Drones to 4. Pair that up with the tracking and speed adjustment and it'd fall more in line with other HACs.

Using a weapon as a deterrent in a diplomatic situation is only viable when you have proven that you have deployed it in the past and are willing to use it in the future.
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#213 - 2014-07-29 17:02:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

"Battleships are not in a good place, you crazy Rise" - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated, but if there's issues there (because of bombers for instance) we would more likely want to deal with that problem from the other direction (by making changes to bombers for instance) rather than changing every BS to compensate. Between Duckslayer's insults he mentioned MWD cap use on BS being a problem which I agree with and I may try to get a change for that in shortly.



Keep it comin


You're going about this in completely the wrong way dude. You can't say that battleships are okay within the class, as battleships are designed to be versatile and cheap enough to engage other kinds of fleet comps. They aren't either of these things. Its goddamn crazy that a tengu costs as much to buy and fit out as an abaddon, for instance.

I wrote this really long post about why battleships need boosting or making cheaper, but it's gotten lost because CCP's forums are terrible.

Tl;DR, battleships have and will never exist within a vaccum, and in the current meta they are goddamned terrible and anyone who uses them in a fleet is an idiot. They need buffing, and making cheaper.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#214 - 2014-07-29 17:02:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
I don't like those proposed changes.

Ishtar will still be the king of the HAC and everything (this ship can apply more damage than an Apocalypse at all but the most extreme of range).
10m/s to the Eagle won't change a thing.
I don't know what to think about the Munnin rebalance, it might make it relavent but I'm not sure, it seem too little a buff.

I wouldn't say that the BS are perfectly ballanced, the Tempest is terrible.
I have a mixed opinions about the Rokh, the fact that a shield tanked Hyperion is often better seems odd.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#215 - 2014-07-29 17:02:33 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
Name any other cruiser that can get a BS amount of DPS to BS kind of ranges with almost frigate kind of tracking while doing 2.45 kilometers a second and STILL having around 60k ehp.


Show me that fitting.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#216 - 2014-07-29 17:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
Its not hard to balance Ishtars. Limit their drone connection range. So they have to stay near their sentries in order to stay connected to them. This will eliminate the current meta of dropping sentries and retreating away. If the ship has to stay close to its drones, it reduces their mobility which makes them easier to kill.

20km range max.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#217 - 2014-07-29 17:05:04 UTC
rsantos wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).

Where's the problem?



I blitz The Blockade, Level 4 (DED) with a shield isthar ... how about that! Isthar thanks almost every rat with ease! Unless you rat semi-afk

http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=Blockade4dd


bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Didn't they used to recommend a heavy tanked BS for that one?

NERF! NERF! NERF!

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#218 - 2014-07-29 17:05:55 UTC
I'm heading out of the office for the day, back tomorrow with more on this.

Fun to be back on F&I.

@ccp_rise
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2014-07-29 17:08:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
why do you think battleships are in a good place? I never see them used for anything.


If you read the text you quoted you will see that I said battleships as a whole getting used isn't what I said was in a good place, rather that battleships are in a pretty good place relative to other battleships.

Also, even though you've been very unlucky not to see them at all, I can assure you they are used for things.

Yea they might be all within the same "usability" as other battleships but battleships aren't anything special either

I think its awful that battleships require the use of a heavy capacitor booster or be useless entirely, many gun boats especially the ones whose guns use capacitor have massive capacitor problems to begin with.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#220 - 2014-07-29 17:09:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside.

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