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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2014-07-29 14:45:31 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Please do not nerf the tempest in this way. Its versatility is very good with 5 mid slots and 6 low slots means I can throw on everything I need without even the eighth slot. If you give it an eighth low it's just going to be a brick typhoon with guns.



It would not be a nerf. Would be a massive BUFF. The typhoon can outperform the temepst on ANYTHING right now. Only an insane person would use a tempest.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#62 - 2014-07-29 14:45:35 UTC
Ishtar - 14




rise and fozzie at it again

great work keep it up a+ subscribed









































lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#63 - 2014-07-29 14:47:53 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The tempest main problem is, a battleship that devote BOTH bonuses to damage and yet is the among lowest damage of all on realistic fits.

Only 6 lows is not enough for a competitive tank AND competitive damage mod number.


It does need 7 low slots. OR one of its damage mods changed. Something like 5% rof and 7.5% Damage per level . That way the battleship with 2 damage mods would STILL not be among the highest damage ones, but would not be on the bottom as well.


7-5-7 ......6 turrets feel free to remove some launchers
7.5% ROF
7.5% damage

maybe switch its mass with phoon and then buff its speed and agility


Go 8 guns, drop RoF for tracking speed. I'm fine either with them keeping the current slot setup on that or going with 4 mids and 7 lows, because it sets it up better as a proper attack battleship. It currently doesn't get any damage projection or application bonuses, and is the only attack battleship not to do so. Besides; tracking speed would help it apply its dps SIGNIFICANTLY better if you're fitting ACs on it.


8 guns removes the utility high completely and takes a slot from either the low or mid slot .. its just bad choice .. when they could just do what they have done with bc's and the hyperion .. of just increasing the damage bonuses too allow better slot layout

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#64 - 2014-07-29 14:48:36 UTC
The sentries have to go on the Ishtar. Its sad to say but it gives the Ishtar way too much range and flexibility.

Rebalance it to not be a sentry boat. I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again.

Change heavy drone bandwidth from 25 to 20
Change the ishtar, navy vexor bandwidth from 125 to 100.

You now have a nitch for the Ishtar, (heavy drone operations ship), the navy vexor, stratios and the myrmidon functions better as they now have an option to launch a full flight of drones that are not sentries, but also are not some mismatch set of drones that the myrmidon, vexor and prophecy currently run.

Basically you don't make the damage of ishtars instantaneous, and you also create a better chase sequence for when they run

Change heavy drones to 20 bandwidth each
Reduce bandwidth on Ishtar and vexor navy to 100.

Yaay!!!!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#65 - 2014-07-29 14:50:22 UTC
its pointless too remove sentries from the ishtar ... there are other ships that can use sentries like the vexor navy issue .. they just changed the gila too reduce overlap and now you want the ishtar too become another gila ???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Aareya
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#66 - 2014-07-29 14:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aareya
I know it's easier to tweak numbers than consider a role change. However, have you thought about moving the Ishtar to be closer inline with other HAC's. Most HAC's use medium weapon systems with bonuses that allow them to punch above their weight class. Ishtar differs in that its bonuses are SOLELY for BS sized weapons (heavy drones and sentries).

A way to bring the ishtar more inline with the theory you use with the other HAC's.

1. Remove sentry bonuses
2. Apply heavy drone bonuses to medium drones.

Current Bonuses
Heavy: Speed + tracking + dps + hp
Sentry: Range + Tracking

Suggested Bonuses
Medium/Heavy: Speed + tracking + dps + hp


EDIT:

Yes, that would change the role from dealing "BS type sentry damage" to something that can tear up smaller ships. I think the diversity will be welcome. With more use of smaller size drones, the effectiveness of smartbombs (outside of pipe bombing) starts to come into play.

Twitter:   @AareyaEVE
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2014-07-29 14:50:36 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The sentries have to go on the Ishtar. Its sad to say but it gives the Ishtar way too much range and flexibility.

Rebalance it to not be a sentry boat. I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again.

Change heavy drone bandwidth from 25 to 20
Change the ishtar, navy vexor bandwidth from 125 to 100.

You now have a nitch for the Ishtar, (heavy drone operations ship), the navy vexor, stratios and the myrmidon functions better as they now have an option to launch a full flight of drones that are not sentries, but also are not some mismatch set of drones that the myrmidon, vexor and prophecy currently run.

Basically you don't make the damage of ishtars instantaneous, and you also create a better chase sequence for when they run

Change heavy drones to 20 bandwidth each
Reduce bandwidth on Ishtar and vexor navy to 100.


stupid, just give them 50 bandwidth and x% medium drone damage bonus. like gila drone dps, but over 5 drones instead of 2.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2014-07-29 14:50:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


One more reason to Love the Eagle #lovemyeagle

Also, very thankful for a new Dev-Thread... I've been reading "sov changes... blah blah" too much lately. Bout time I saw a Blue Arrow under the pic!!!

Cedric
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#69 - 2014-07-29 14:50:44 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:


TLDR; Tempest should keep its slots, but change its bonuses from 5% dmg and 5% firing rate to an 8 gun ships with 5% damage and 7.5% tracking speed per level.


nope nope nope

there is a reason there is no normal ship in the game with 8 turrets and a damage bonus to 1400mms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-07-29 14:52:15 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The sentries have to go on the Ishtar. Its sad to say but it gives the Ishtar way too much range and flexibility.

Rebalance it to not be a sentry boat. I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again.

Change heavy drone bandwidth from 25 to 20
Change the ishtar, navy vexor bandwidth from 125 to 100.

You now have a nitch for the Ishtar, (heavy drone operations ship), the navy vexor, stratios and the myrmidon functions better as they now have an option to launch a full flight of drones that are not sentries, but also are not some mismatch set of drones that the myrmidon, vexor and prophecy currently run.

Basically you don't make the damage of ishtars instantaneous, and you also create a better chase sequence for when they run

Change heavy drones to 20 bandwidth each
Reduce bandwidth on Ishtar and vexor navy to 100.



And what would be the bonuses for the ishtar? Then you need to find new bonuses to replace the sentry ones.. The ishtar is a ship very hard to balance.

At the end.. the final solution for this and the correlated problem would be to nerf ALL sentry drones tracking by some 30%.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#71 - 2014-07-29 14:52:41 UTC
Capqu wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:


TLDR; Tempest should keep its slots, but change its bonuses from 5% dmg and 5% firing rate to an 8 gun ships with 5% damage and 7.5% tracking speed per level.


nope nope nope

there is a reason there is no normal ship in the game with 8 turrets and a damage bonus to 1400mms


arties already have far too much alpha and should really be changed too a better balanced profile...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Theophilas
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#72 - 2014-07-29 14:52:58 UTC
nerf sentries?

no?

o-okay.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#73 - 2014-07-29 14:54:26 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The tempest main problem is, a battleship that devote BOTH bonuses to damage and yet is the among lowest damage of all on realistic fits.

Only 6 lows is not enough for a competitive tank AND competitive damage mod number.


It does need 7 low slots. OR one of its damage mods changed. Something like 5% rof and 7.5% Damage per level . That way the battleship with 2 damage mods would STILL not be among the highest damage ones, but would not be on the bottom as well.


7-5-7 ......6 turrets feel free to remove some launchers
7.5% ROF
7.5% damage

maybe switch its mass with phoon and then buff its speed and agility


Go 8 guns, drop RoF for tracking speed. I'm fine either with them keeping the current slot setup on that or going with 4 mids and 7 lows, because it sets it up better as a proper attack battleship. It currently doesn't get any damage projection or application bonuses, and is the only attack battleship not to do so. Besides; tracking speed would help it apply its dps SIGNIFICANTLY better if you're fitting ACs on it.


8 guns removes the utility high completely and takes a slot from either the low or mid slot .. its just bad choice .. when they could just do what they have done with bc's and the hyperion .. of just increasing the damage bonuses too allow better slot layout


That's why they have the 7/5/7 slot layout on the Typhoon; it's supposed to be the utility/jack of all trades BS, while the Tempest
is "a versatile gunship proficient at long-range bombardment and capable of dishing out specialized types of damage with great effectiveness."
It's supposed to focus on projectile specialization, which means having the 8 gun setup with a damage and tracking bonus makes it excel at fielding arty and autos alike, doesn't step on the toes of its other siblings, the tornado and maelstrom. The fleet issue counterparts should retain more utlity since that's the theme that they have going for them.
Aareya
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#74 - 2014-07-29 14:54:30 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The sentries have to go on the Ishtar. Its sad to say but it gives the Ishtar way too much range and flexibility.

Rebalance it to not be a sentry boat. I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again.

Change heavy drone bandwidth from 25 to 20
Change the ishtar, navy vexor bandwidth from 125 to 100.

You now have a nitch for the Ishtar, (heavy drone operations ship), the navy vexor, stratios and the myrmidon functions better as they now have an option to launch a full flight of drones that are not sentries, but also are not some mismatch set of drones that the myrmidon, vexor and prophecy currently run.

Basically you don't make the damage of ishtars instantaneous, and you also create a better chase sequence for when they run

Change heavy drones to 20 bandwidth each
Reduce bandwidth on Ishtar and vexor navy to 100.



And what would be the bonuses for the ishtar? Then you need to find new bonuses to replace the sentry ones.. The ishtar is a ship very hard to balance.

At the end.. the final solution for this and the correlated problem would be to nerf ALL sentry drones tracking by some 30%.


See my above post on suggested bonuses.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4855340#post4855340

Twitter:   @AareyaEVE
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#75 - 2014-07-29 14:55:20 UTC
PPS

When are you fixing BCs Rise? Or are those all fine and dandy now
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#76 - 2014-07-29 14:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Harvey James wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The tempest main problem is, a battleship that devote BOTH bonuses to damage and yet is the among lowest damage of all on realistic fits.

Only 6 lows is not enough for a competitive tank AND competitive damage mod number.


It does need 7 low slots. OR one of its damage mods changed. Something like 5% rof and 7.5% Damage per level . That way the battleship with 2 damage mods would STILL not be among the highest damage ones, but would not be on the bottom as well.


7-5-7 ......6 turrets feel free to remove some launchers
7.5% ROF
7.5% damage

maybe switch its mass with phoon and then buff its speed and agility


Go 8 guns, drop RoF for tracking speed. I'm fine either with them keeping the current slot setup on that or going with 4 mids and 7 lows, because it sets it up better as a proper attack battleship. It currently doesn't get any damage projection or application bonuses, and is the only attack battleship not to do so. Besides; tracking speed would help it apply its dps SIGNIFICANTLY better if you're fitting ACs on it.


8 guns removes the utility high completely and takes a slot from either the low or mid slot .. its just bad choice .. when they could just do what they have done with bc's and the hyperion .. of just increasing the damage bonuses too allow better slot layout


That's why they have the 7/5/7 slot layout on the Typhoon; it's supposed to be the utility/jack of all trades BS, while the Tempest is "a versatile gunship proficient at long-range bombardment and capable of dishing out specialized types of damage with great effectiveness."

It's supposed to focus on projectile specialization, which means having the 8 gun setup with a damage and tracking bonus makes it excel at fielding arty and autos alike, and doesn't step on the toes of its other siblings, the tornado and maelstrom. The fleet issue counterparts should retain more utlity since that's the theme that they have going for them.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2014-07-29 14:56:07 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Capqu wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:


TLDR; Tempest should keep its slots, but change its bonuses from 5% dmg and 5% firing rate to an 8 gun ships with 5% damage and 7.5% tracking speed per level.


nope nope nope

there is a reason there is no normal ship in the game with 8 turrets and a damage bonus to 1400mms


arties already have far too much alpha and should really be changed too a better balanced profile...



Nope. They were uesles before that was changed. They are already the LOWEST tracking and LOWEST effective range and LOWEST dps of all long range weaponry.

They add flavor. It was a massive unanimous support when arties got their alpha strike back, a change that took the comunity YEARs and a thread of 320 pages to get it.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-07-29 14:56:30 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Capqu wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:


TLDR; Tempest should keep its slots, but change its bonuses from 5% dmg and 5% firing rate to an 8 gun ships with 5% damage and 7.5% tracking speed per level.


nope nope nope

there is a reason there is no normal ship in the game with 8 turrets and a damage bonus to 1400mms


arties already have far too much alpha and should really be changed too a better balanced profile...

They fire extremely slow, their alpha is canceled out by the fact they fire once every 10 seconds

their DPS is worse than Rails, have less tracking and have about the same range
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#79 - 2014-07-29 14:56:40 UTC
rise i'd appreciate it if you just gave ishtars the rapid light missile treatment


if you know what i mean ;) ;) ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-07-29 14:56:48 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The sentries have to go on the Ishtar. Its sad to say but it gives the Ishtar way too much range and flexibility.

Rebalance it to not be a sentry boat. I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again.

Change heavy drone bandwidth from 25 to 20
Change the ishtar, navy vexor bandwidth from 125 to 100.

You now have a nitch for the Ishtar, (heavy drone operations ship), the navy vexor, stratios and the myrmidon functions better as they now have an option to launch a full flight of drones that are not sentries, but also are not some mismatch set of drones that the myrmidon, vexor and prophecy currently run.

Basically you don't make the damage of ishtars instantaneous, and you also create a better chase sequence for when they run

Change heavy drones to 20 bandwidth each
Reduce bandwidth on Ishtar and vexor navy to 100.


stupid, just give them 50 bandwidth and x% medium drone damage bonus. like gila drone dps, but over 5 drones instead of 2.


You're forgetting that there are a Handful of non-Ishtar ships out there that have exactly 100 Mbit bandwidth that could see this as a stealth buff, not to mention the folks that fly w/ 75Mbit bandwidth that could run a 3+2 heavy/medium setup.

Also, there are a few frigs/destros out there (tristan, algos, Dragoon) that would now be able to field a Heavy. I'm betting that's not in the design process.

Cedric